Men are Learning that Marriage is Nothing Good for Them
“You have to realize that there is nothing Christian about the Government Sanctioned ‘Marriage Contracts’ that are being peddled now. They are nothing but tools for lawyers and judges to rob and steal from (mostly) men. Men are slowly learning that marriage is nothing good for them, and reacting by staying away from the fraud,” wrote Tim on my post Men Giving Up on Marriage.
Lindsay Harold responded: “It is true that, given the current cultural attitudes about marriage and the legal system, it is a huge risk for a man to marry. Culturally, society tells women to leave if they aren’t ‘happy’ and that marriage is for them to be served by a man and get children if they want them. So, many marriages continually revolve around the desires of the woman, trying to keep her happy by doing things her way to keep peace in the home and keep the family together. Men hate this, but many live this way because they don’t want to lose their family.
It’s even worse if the woman decides to leave. No-fault divorce laws means she can walk away from the marriage at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all, and over the objections of her husband. And if she does, the courts will almost always grant her primary custody of the children, half the existing assets, and a sizable chunk of her former husband’s income.
Thus, marriage today, for a man, often means he gets emasculated by catering to his wife constantly, being belittled and berated rather than appreciated, and then she decides she isn’t happy, takes his kids and his money, and goes off to do her own thing. It’s no wonder men are reluctant to sign up for that.
Marriage as God intended it is a beautiful thing and beneficial to both men and women (and vital for children). But since society won’t enforce marriage vows and instead actively encourages marriages to break up, it is very important to find a spouse who has their own internal morals and character so that they can be trusted to remain in the marriage even when all the incentives seem to encourage them to leave.”
I replied to this man: “There’s a lot good about marriage if a man finds a godly, submissive woman to marry. She will bear and raise your children. She will be a help meet to you and make your life easier. She will take good care of your home and fix you good meals, plus be available sexually for you, but you must find a woman who believes wholeheartedly in biblical womanhood.”
Appreciate your husband, women, and stop shaming him, thus causing him to regret the day he married you if you are a foolish woman who is tearing her house down with her own hands.
Every wise woman buildeth her house:
but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.
Proverbs 14:1
30 thoughts on “Men are Learning that Marriage is Nothing Good for Them”
“I replied to this man: ‘There’s a lot [of] good about marriage if a man finds a godly, submissive woman to marry.’”
I agree Lori. But that IF is an ever shrinking possibility. Is the ratio of submissive women to men 2:1, 10:1, 50:1, 100:1? And if he finds that 1 in 50, the pressure on her WITHIN THE CHURCH [plus the obvious outside the church] to take charge will grow on her over time. And, to be very frank, my experience has been that no woman understands the power of Gen 3:16 that ‘desire’ inside her; it never goes away – it is only controlled in faith to the Word. Many women understand the concept but no woman understands the power of it to take control over them at any moment. That is why scripture to women is so black and white. That is why we have to take scripture on faith —without understanding — and ACT on it. That power to control in a woman, as CS Lewis notes*, is more deadly than anything a man has ever done.
I’ve been scoffed at for some time for saying that this topic is the WHOLE issue of healing in the church. This healing precedes the healing of every other sickness that you might see in the church. To be clear: THE HEALING OF THE CHURCH STARTS WITH WOMEM TAKING THEIR RIGHTFUL PLACE.
Men are left with a small handful of alternatives [or combo or sequence thereof] to responding to an unsubmissive wife …and I submit that a) this is AFTER each husband has challenged his wife in some reasonable fashion, and b) one or more of these are in EVERY marriage whether we recognize it or not:
1) clam-up, 2) check out [figurative or literal], 3) adultery, 4) divorce, 5) physically die [yes, I saw my mother kill my father and get away with it; see Proverbs ‘rottenness to the bones’] 6) abuse 7) stand ground. And I suggest that the last one is essentially not heard of nor seen. And regarding 6 + 7: …funny how the world and church will talk about men abusing women [the symptom] but never women abusing men [the illness].
What is going on in marriage in the church is much worse than almost everyone realizes. It starts with a special and notable blasphemy that ONLY occurs by wives sinning against their husbands. Note in Titus 2 that Paul, in addressing men and women in the church, only assigns “that the word of God be not blasphemed” to younger women and their obedience to their husbands. This is where the foundation of blaspheming God’s word – blaspheming God Himself — starts ! [And I would argue that older women not teaching it to younger women are included in that]
Women, you are either the most life-giving source on earth for your man, or you are the most deadly for him. Nothing else in his life remotely compares. He can joyously fight all else if he has you with him. You are either for him or against him. There is no lukewarm in-between. Please, grasp in full faith …the Word of our Lord.
*”Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” – CS Lewis
I am much more hopeful than you Dave on this important matter. The issue of a “woman’s desire be in control” has been with mankind since the beginning, and certainty many women, including many Christian women have thrown off what they perceive as a man’s shackles to choose to live life outside of the authority of their husbands. All this being true, there are still a vast many of women who although they want things their way, are wiling to “partner” with their husband in creating a “win-win” peaceable marriage.
Are these partnership marriages done God’s ways? NO. But can they be joyful and satisfying … YES. I have lived on all three sides of the marriage equation and in the end of the day our love and commitment to the Lord and each other would have continued to the end, even as your marriage is doing so.
There is much lost when marriage is not done God’s ways, but after all this life is not about what we get out of it, but what we give to it and others. If God calls a man to the sacrificial love of a difficult wife he does not have the choices to commit adultery or to leave her, but to continue o love her “as Christ loves the church, and hope against hope that God will move her to find His love and His ways.
I realize that your main point is that the church is doomed if it does not go about fixing one of its fundamental issues of removing feminism from the church. Here we can agree that this disease has infiltrated the Church, yet hundreds and thousands of Christian women when they hear the truth of God’s Word are responding positively to it. We just need more older godly women and strong pastors to present God’s ways for marriage as it is a beautiful thing when done to please Him.
This was so good, I loved reading Lindsay’s response! Definitely true and she hit every critical point worth mentioning.
It’s hard to believe that society has come to this. It doesn’t seem like that many years have gone by relative to our country even, yet men and women have just gone so far down the decline! We were trying to describe to our oldest (6) just yesterday how different people used to act in neighborhood communities and their clothing styles, mannerisms of how men even used to walk and carry themselves with so much more respect! The only way we know these things (since we were both born in the 80’s) is because of our grandparents telling us about them, reading books about that time, and seeing old movies from before 1950. Especially when you see those old black and white movies… it’s just so hard to see how different people act now. And not for the better at all 🙁
I’m a wee bit confused here.
On the whole, I agree with you, Lori. But how come, in your post you quote Lindsay Harold who says the woman “takes his money and his kids” and then in your own words, you say a woman shames a man by advertising how much money she makes and calling it “her” money. If it’s okay for the man to call it “his” money (and “his” kids, even though “she” bore them) why can the woman not call money she has earned, hers? To me, that seems to be incredibly hypocritical. And, to me, it would indicate why the marriage failed – not because the wife made the husband pander to her, but because the whole attitude was wrong – ‘his’ and ‘hers’ rather than ‘ours’.
In my own marriage, both my husband and I contribute financially to the household, and we consider it “our” money. Not “his”, not “mine” – it’s “ours” – regardless of who actually earned it. Same as the kids – they’re “ours” – not “mine” or “his” – and even when we were separated, the kids were still “ours” and we shared equally in all parenting decisions even while apart.
For the record, I do agree that a woman advertising how much money she makes, is shameful to her husband, especially if she makes more than he does; that’s why, ultimately, my husband is in charge of our finances, even though I contribute financially as well, and have almost equal say (if I want it, but I often don’t feel the need to, I trust my husband’s judgement). But he manages our money, he pays all the bills on time, and I don’t have to worry about any of it; he does all that.
I find it really hard to come onto this blog (which I love!) and see comments made by men, belittling their wives, or blaming women for the state of their dismal marriages. It is apparent by their very attitudes – reading their words – why those marriages are failing.
Wifely/womanly submission is a gift that a wife gives her husband. Yes, God tells us that it is his will for us to do it, but it is still a choice that we make. It is not something that can be forced from us, or guilt-tripped out of us; it is a gift that is given when we feel truly loved and cherished. And, from personal experience, once we take that step of submission, even the tiniest step, we will truly feel loved and cherished by our husbands, which in turn will make us want to submit to him more. Why would any woman want to submit to a man who doesn’t treat her well? It is truly scary, reading a comment made by a man which is almost justifying abuse, because the woman won’t submit.
Dave – I’m so very glad I go to a different church to you!
At the church I attend, BOTH spouses are encouraged to follow their Biblical roles – women are encouraged to be in submission to their husbands, and men are encouraged to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Both roles are preached equally, and for the most part, we all do our best to fulfill our God-given roles (obviously a few don’t, but these people are in the minority). In those roles, there is no room for abuse on either side. When there is abuse, it is not because the woman is not submissive – it is because the abusive spouse has a problem. And yes, women are just as abusive as men are – but again, the problem lies with the abuser – not the victim.
Reading your comment, it seems as though you are blaming women for domestic violence, or trying to justify abuse, and that is truly scary. Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus advocate violence or abuse. Jesus’ love for the church was a love of service, of teaching, and encouraging; not belittling or blaming or hurting. I have even heard it said at church that husbands who abuse their wives will have to answer to that on the judgement day; as of course will those wives who refuse to be in subjection to their husbands as the Bible tells us to do.
I also want to add that, no matter what, adultery is never an option. The Bible is quite clear that there will be no adulterers in heaven.
In our church, there are a few people who are separated, and have remained single, because their spouses have left them for whatever reason (and usually left the church as well). As long as that single person doesn’t fall into adultery, they are doing nothing wrong. Yes, I know it is more tempting when one is single, but my father has remained faithful and single for 17 years now, after my mother left him for another man, and he is still strong in his faith. He prays for strength to continue, and the Lord gives it to him.
This has to be far preferable to staying with a difficult wife if you believe the only options open to you by staying with her are abuse or adultery.
it is a gift that is given when we feel truly loved and cherished. And, from personal experience, once we take that step of submission, even the tiniest step, we will truly feel loved and cherished by our husbands, which in turn will make us want to submit to him more. Why would any woman want to submit to a man who doesn’t treat her well?
I see submission differently. Submission is not a gift, it is obeying the Lord. I don’t submit BECAUSE I feel loved and cherished, quite the opposite in my case. When I started submitting and stopped trying to run the house and control my husband, that’s when I started to feel loved and cherished. Yes, my husband is called to love me as Christ loves the church, but there is no clause that says if he doesn’t that I don’t have to submit. Many, many women have submitted to a husband who doesn’t treat her well, men who are downright nasty, and in doing so, won their husband’s to the Lord. So no, a woman may not want to submit to a man that treats her badly, but she is called to submit to him (and no, I am not talking about abusive men here, so please don’t start saying I am promoting abuse) regardless of how she feels, that is true submission.
Hi Ken,
Oh, I am very hopeful. But our hope is in Jesus, and Jesus is the Word, ‘every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’ Any discussion about God and His people has to do with renewing to His Word. All else is distraction or pretty words, and always failure. Hopefulness, then, includes the facts of how His people act, transforming from unrighteousness to righteousness [or not]. And there are many acts that are not pretty in scripture, and they have not stopped in His people to this day. We are certainly all to have hope in the Lord but that hope only comes from keeping His commandments; we delude ourselves thinking otherwise. We have to, as Paul says, fight the urge of inner self that arises each day within us. It is always there, sometimes more under discipline and sometimes less.
You say some wives “are willing to partner …creating a win-win …peaceable marriage” while “outside the authority of their husbands.” By definition, that is not peaceable and it is not a win-win, nor “joyful and satisfying” as you suggest because it is against the words and precepts of God. People may ‘feel’ all those things for a while but they are not experiencing God. It may be peace that the world has to give, but not His peace.
There is no ‘partner’ in scripture regarding marriage; not in word or in concept. The Church does not ‘partner’ with Christ; rather the church is subject to Christ. Likewise, the wife does not partner with her husband; rather she is subject to her husband. We should not entice anyone to think ‘partnering’ is a nice compromise to live in indefinitely; we are either for Him or against Him. A wife is either for her husband or against him. You even acknowledge these ‘partnering’ ways are not God’s ways, that these wives live a ‘life outside the authority of their husbands’ so why are you suggesting this is a satisfactory state to live in, to “continue to the end”? Anyone who is out of the Lord’s will, out of His ‘Way’ is on the road to Hell. Jesus was not bashful to say this. Why are we? Do we ever stop fighting this? Clearly in scripture, no.
Staying in that state “to the end” is why men go to the proverbial ‘wilderness, and ‘corner of the rooftop’; why their ‘bones rot.’ Most men are fighting dearly to overcome in their marriage, no matter how inexperienced they may be at it. And there are clearly limits to their holding strong that Paul and Proverbs above speak of. And don’t forget the deadly principles that roll off in this ‘partnership’ and “peaceable marriage” “to the [bitter] end” ….onto children and many others.
The myth of the husbands ‘sacrificing’ so their wives may remain in sin is part of the downfall of the church. Christ came to earth first to CONFRONT His bride of her condition. His death is meaningless without His bride knowing the cost that He paid for her condition. Men do not take away the sins of their wives. Only Christ does that, so men’s primary responsibility is to confront their wives, to “present her …not having spot or wrinkle …without blemish.” This myth of sacrificing his authority emasculates men and effectively says to all: ‘if your wife does not submit, just accept it and let her indefinitely run roughshod over you and the family and into the church and world’ for there is nothing you can do about it. That clearly places the authority in the woman. And that clearly encourages the word of God to be blasphemed. Jesus, as the Word, is to this day confronting His people and husbands should not stop, for Christ ‘did not bring peace, but a sword’ …the word of God.
Other than sacrificing FOR our sins [which no other person can do], the only sacrificing Christ did was of His time and energy for His people and of His will to the Father. He did not sacrifice His authority to His church. Likewise, a husband certainly must sacrifice his football viewing and golf to confront his wife. But he must never sacrifice his authority.
I was not recommending that those choices of men were all godly, just stating the facts of the choices that occur, like Paul says —not to defraud our spouse, thereby pushing them toward/to adultery. A sin in one often begets sin in another.
Finally, and to re-emphasize since you disagreed: I don’t think that this topic is just ‘one’ of several important issues in the church. People do not have a relationship with Christ for one practical foundational reason: they are not prepared as the bride of Christ. That is done only one way: by keeping His commandments. There is no halfway, partial ‘partnership’ surrender on our terms. And the church is not effectively prepared as His bride because marriage has not modeled that preparation.
Hi KK, I was merely pointing out the options men take when their wives rebel against them. They are real and actual options. They are not all holy. And yes, men will have to answer for each and every sin. I never said those things you imply. Please don’t read what is not written. However, yes, I am stating that women instigate domestic violence …against themselves. You read that right. I would never [nor have ever] promote abuse. I am just saying that conventional wisdom is looking in the wrong place; wasting time treating the symptoms as the illness goes on.
I suggest never using the word ‘equally’ in the marriage discussion for it is an inflammatory word of feminism and never used in scripture. It was, by no coincidence, first proposed by Satan in the Garden [be like God]. That is not good company with which to align. Actually, scripture teaches considerably more about wives submitting and for men to watch out for women, as her rebellion to her charge has special notation as ‘blasphemy against the word of God.’
Yes, Ma’am, God does go around ‘blaming’ and he ‘hurt’ a lot of feelings and will ‘hurt’ those that do not respond to his confrontation. I understand the church does not preach this but that is the whole reason Christ came to earth in person ….to confront His people, to confront arguments and actions that raise themselves up against His word; to separate wheat from chaff. Read my response to Ken for the rest of the story.
The church defines husband loving wives incorrectly as I also noted in my response to Ken. It has painted Christ as a pansy, as Gandhi. You can’t take God apart. It is all of Him or none of Him. He is not part grace and part law; He is 100% both. He is not half Savior and half Lord; He is 100% both. He is not part love and part hate; He is 100% both. We can’t take one part of Him and reject another. It is all of Him or none of Him.
It is never a holy option but it is an option. And Paul warns spouses to not to defraud your spouse because YOU —-having sinned first — can drive your spouse to adultery.
There will be adulterers in heaven, KK. But only redeemed adulterers. David, “beloved of God” was an adulterer. I’ve always assumed he was in His Kingdom; not so???
I never said “the only options open to you by staying with her are abuse or adultery.” You are wanting to read something that I have not stated. I know this is new territory for the church. I encourage you to dig under the surface. Blessing in Him as the Truth.
Hi KK, I encourage you to, as Paul instructs, align your thinking about marriage with how the church aligns its relationship to Christ. In other words in any marriage discussion, the words ‘Christ‘ and ‘husband’ are interchangeable, and ‘church’ and ‘wife’ or interchangeable; the principles apply one in the same.
1) “why can the woman not call money she has earned, hers? To me, that seems to be incredibly hypocritical.” Once a woman says “I do” she turns herself’ over to her husband. All of her is his. She surrender’s all with him. When we become the bride of Christ we turn our being and all our possessions over to Him, to His leadership and say.
2) KK, if you “have almost equal say” with your husband then you do not have a biblical marriage. The church does not ‘have almost equal say’ with Christ. You have accepted some Illicit Authority that is not given you in scripture.
3) Re: Submission: “It is not something that can be forced from us, or guilt-tripped out of us.” True, it is a choice as “I have set before you life and death; now chose life.’ But the ‘guilt trip’ IS to come from husband to wife just like it comes from Christ to his church [I wouldn’t phrase it as ‘guilt trip’ but it makes the point and are the words you used.] See my prior comments on this topic I call confrontation, or scripture calls “Rock of Offense”; that is Jesus …that is your husband.
I didn’t think you were that old, Stephanie. 🙂 Our culture went rapidly downhill after the 60s sexual revolution. I was born in 1958 so I was a product of this mess. My parents weren’t, however, so they had no idea what we were exposed to in the public school system. Ken and I knew what our children would face so we were well prepared for it. Yes, life used to be a lot safer and people generally had manners and integrity but the farther we get from biblical values, the worse our society gets.
I understand what you are saying and as usual agree with most of it. My main point was to say there is a alternative to the things you listed men can do and that is to play along with a wife in seeking peace in a marriage by adopting the world’s way of marriage in a partnership, until such time as the Lord opens up her eyes to His ways for marriage.
We are told to “strive for peace with everyone” … “so that no root of bitterness will spring up to cause trouble and defile many” (Heb 12:14-15) This peace obviously includes our difficult spouse.
We are also to to stay with our unbelieving spouse so long as they are wiling to live with us… again implying a place of peaceful coexistence in a model of marriage that is not God’s ideal, but it is his desire that all remain married and not divorce.
My challenge to the guys I mentor is to 1) stand their ground in a loving and gracious manner, 2) Seek common ground in asking that all that is done in the home be according to “common human decency” if not Christian values, 3) accept one’s spouse where they are at until such time as God with His Word moves them to where they need to be.
A Christian husband married to a Christian wife has the obligation to always be gracious and loving while also the obligation to lead, even if she does not want to follow. This leadership can take many forms, and a husband has every obligation to “speak the truth in love” into the circumstances of the marriage, while keeping Christ’s love preeminent in all he says and does.
After all you are quite correct when you say: “They are not prepared as the bride of Christ. That is done only one way: by keeping His commandments. There is no halfway, partial ‘partnership’ surrender on our terms.”
We as husbands do not partner with Christ in living at peace with our spouses so much as it depends on us. (Ro 12:8). We are to be Jesus to our wives who are difficult. I am not saying that discipline and consequences are not part of what Jesus gives to His disobedient children, but the sum of a husband’s life is to live out his Christian walk before his wife so that she may be sanctified. I do not tell husbands how they are to accomplish winning over a difficult wife, but as they go about it they must stay solidly and firmly on the Word of God as to how they live before their Lord in their efforts to help grow her up into Christ and in the marriage.
Begin by accepting her where she is at… ask her to abide by the rules of common human decency… and challenge her bad thinking in the areas that do not match up to her own stated values. But also do your best to live at peace with her allowing room for the Lord to do the heavy lifting to remove her blindness and desire for control. To make her vulnerable in Christ to a husband’s loving leadership.
KK,
You say that “Wifely/womanly submission is a gift that a wife gives her husband.” That sure is a convenient way to look at it. Would you also say that Leadership, Provider, Protector and Sacrificial Love is a “gift” that a husband gives to his wife? Are those things really “optional” or are they “owed” to her because God commands it?
You also say that “it is a gift that is given when we feel truly loved and cherished.” Sounds like your husband must have to jump through a lot of hoops to satisfy your “feelings” just right to get your “submission”. The Bible tells you that you are to submit to your husband even if he is being disobedient to the Word. Nothing about that sounds like a gift, is conditional, or optional.
Personally, I do not read ANY of the verses commanding Christian behavior as OPTIONAL, a GIFT, or CONTINGENT upon anything. You are either obeying God and walking in the Spirit OR you are disobeying God and walking in SIN. Those are the only options here to consider.
Wives who are not obeying God’s instructions should be (lovingly) rebuked by their husbands and called to repentance. What I have not figured out yet is what a husband is supposed to do if his (self proclaimed) Godly wife refuses to repent.
You also say, regarding finances, that you “have almost equal say (if I want it…”. What Bible verse is it that gives you this “almost equal say” in a Godly marriage where God has clearly named the husband as head and the wife is to submit to her husband in everything just as she would to Jesus Christ himself? If we are talking biblical marriage here, wives have no say, “almost equal” or otherwise. They can be a tremendous help and have critically valuable input, but they have NO “say” if you believe God’s word.
I try not to post much but I read this blog daily and see various things you have written. You have quite a few interesting ways that you look at things that I find no biblical justification for. Fact is, many of your views are clearly in opposition to God’s clearly stated Word. You are not in the minority however, your views are part and parcel to much of what is wrong in the modern church. Take heart, we are all works in progress sister and you are visiting the right place in this blog to have those views challenged. I am your brother in Christ; consider yourself lovingly rebuked.
I hear what you are saying KK but just as Dave, in my opinion, may overstate his points at time, you seem to do the same. Dave never advocates for adultery or abuse, he is simply stating the facts of what happens: far too many men who are married to a difficult and controlling wives.
Each person must own their own stuff and sins, and no one can stand before the Lord some day and say, “That woman you gave me she made me sin.” On the other hand, so too must the person who is being difficult, withholding sex, being controlling, etc. own the fact that her husband has left her, or she is in a sorry state in her marriage. Both sides can and do affect the other… so please don’t put more of a burden on the man to love his wife than you are willing to put on a wife to love and submit to her husband. Allow Dave to speak to the unfortunate reality of things in far too many marriages, and yet to also say he does not condone sin in any way.
Trey you are correct in your assessment that the biggest problem with the modern church is that we tend to view full obedience to God’s Word as a good thing, but optional for me. Many expect their spouse to act like a Christian towards them, but are unwilling to act fully as Christian in return.
In my home I have a wife on board with the idea that everything done in our home will be Christian, and if it is not, the other spouse calls you on it. That is the way I choose to lead with leadership by example, and if I am not living up to the example in Christ she is to say something to me. And you bet she will hear it from me if she is sinning.
In between there is lots of grace and forgiveness. Awareness becomes our best friend as it leads us to see ourselves and our behavior for what it is so we can choose to live out our values.
Now to your comment: “What I have not figured out yet is what a husband is supposed to do if his (self proclaimed) Godly wife refuses to repent.”
I think there is no one way or silver bullet that works for a wife who is disobedient to the Word like the one given to women “to win him without a word.” In some cases a wife can be won by showing more love, more grace, forgiveness and acceptance, but in most cases those things seem to only make a wife go further into her ‘be in control and have marriage her way… or worse yet, have no real marriage at all’ but count on her husband as her benefactor.
I suggest that husbands with these types of Christian wives should begin with an all out effort to prove to the difficult wife that he is indeed loving and is not the main problem with the marriage. This takes time, effort and humility, but like Hosea we keep loving and being Christian to our wife even as she is not living up to her part of the marriage or expressing Christian values towards us.
The next step to to speak God’s truth into the relationship in a kind, but firm way. Then each time she violates her own values call her on it in a matter of fact way… taking as much emotion out as possible and telling her what you need from her.
If a Christian husband dose the first two steps well with his difficult wife what I see happening is that she will come to understand that indeed “she is the problem” in the marriage and she is the one sinning. Once that happens, she now has a choice to work together with her husband or break her bad habits of sin, or to become further unrepentant and difficult claiming that “If God has not changed me yet, you won’t be able to” or “Yes I am a sinner but that is between me and God.”
At this point a Christian husband must continue to love his wife and stay within his Christian values, but he also may try exploring methods of reasonable discipline for a wife who regularly violates “common human decency” towards him. A husband is called to lead even if a wife will not follow, and he is always called to lead in a loving manner, but some wives will respond positively to discipline in a way that they never did with permissiveness.
We see wives who continue in their unrepentant ways begin to have mental/emotional issues. One cannot continually violate their own stated values without it ultimately affecting their psyche. This goes for men and women, but men tend to be much more in tune with their sins and can acknowledge them more freely, even if they do not change them, than women, who want to believe they are not the problem and they are not sinning. It is when a person continually deludes themselves that the mental/emotional issues begin to overtake them, and now it is years of counseling to try and figure out what could have been so simple in the first place:
“God said it… let’s do it.”
Hi Dave
At the church I attend, wifely submission is most definitely taught; as is the power of women – their holy conversation can convert their unbelieving husbands! That is a pretty powerful thing! I’m not sure that there is any more emphasis put on wifely submission in my church than there is on the husband loving his wife though; I think they’d be about equal.
You may be correct that most churches don’t teach it at all – I have no experience of any other church. If you are correct, then that is very sad indeed.
I believe using the word “equally” in a marriage partnership simply because this is how it is – even if a wife is in true Biblical subjection to her husband, she is still “equal” to him in every way that matters. The Bibles teaches that a man leaves his family and cleaves to his wife and the two become one – does that not indicate equality, a true partnership, working together in unison? Sure, the roles may be different, but they are both equally important. The Bible speaks many times about men and women being created equally. Ephesians 5:21 says “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” Does that not indicate to you that both spouses are equal? It does to me. It isn’t anything to do with feminism, the way I understand it.
As far as domestic violence goes, I have no knowledge of it in America, but here in New Zealand, domestic violence is across all sectors of society, and nothing to do with whether or not a woman submits to her husband. I work in the social work field so do know a fair bit about this, but Lori’s blog is perhaps not the best place to discuss this. I am, however, willing to discuss it further if you would like to, in a different forum – email perhaps?
As far as the church defining husbands loving wives incorrectly – you may be right on that point – all I know is what my own church teaches, which is very different to what other churches have to say on the matter. The church I attend certainly doesn’t paint Christ as a pansy. Your last paragraph, I agree with 100%.
Hi Dave
I apologise for misunderstanding your comments. The way I read it, you were justifying a man’s decision to abuse or cheat on his wife. If that was not your meaning, I apologise.
My experience of adultery is somewhat different to the average persons I suppose, simply because, in my family, it was my mother who was (and still is) the adulterer. For many years, she was a good, loving Christian wife who was in true Biblical subjection to her husband – and she admits my father treated her well. But in the end, SHE cheated on him, for reasons that I won’t go into on here, but they weren’t the fault of my father.
I do agree with your point though, that spouses often do drive the other partner to adultery. And yes, reformed/repented adulterers will be in heaven, I was just quoting the actual verse.
I have already apologised to Dave for misunderstanding him, but I will do so again: Dave – the way I read your comments, I thought you were justifying a man’s sin because he has an unsubmissive wife. To my mind, that is no excuse for sin. I now understand what you were actually meaning, and I apologise for misunderstanding, and making unfair accusations.
Trey – I do not believe that any of my views are in opposition to the word of God. However, if you read anything I write that you believe is, please ask me to clarify it and I will gladly do so.
As for me having almost equal say, this is because my husband values my input. Our different strengths complement each other greatly, and while the final decision is always his, and I respect the decisions he makes, he does always ask for my thoughts on matters. This is something he has always chosen to do, because he respects me as a person. If he suddenly decided he no longer wanted my input, that would be fine, as he always makes good decisions. As women are called to obey their husbands, giving my opinion when my husband asks for it, means my “equal say” is scriptural, does it not?
I do take issue with your second paragraph. Actually, that is rather a large understatement, I take HUGE issue with it actually. When I first married my husband, he was a good, Godly man, with a history of drug addiction, smoking and drinking. I was a Christian woman, raised in the same church as he was. Several years into our marriage, we moved to an area where my husband’s old mates lived, the old mates who used drugs with him, smoked with him, drank with him. Before very long, my husband was wasting all our money, and getting us into huge debt, due to these addictions. We had 3 young children at the time, who were often hungry because there was no food to feed them. My mother and his parents had to give me money to put food in their bellies. He was unable to hold down a job, sending me out to work, while he stayed home with the kids. Even though I was earning the money, he was still in charge of it – as a Christian woman I knew that I had to submit to my husband in all things. I prayed daily, that he would change – that he would overcome his addictions, that he would make better financial decisions, that he would return to the Lord and attend church with me again. After working a full day, I had to come home and clean the house and cook the meals, because my husband wasn’t entirely functioning.
Time went on. I continued to attend church, to read my Bible and pray daily; to be the best wife I could be to him, to submit to him in all things, just as the Bible tells me to. I tried, I really did. In hindsight, perhaps I wasn’t good enough, perhaps I wasn’t submissive enough – I made it clear that I didn’t approve of what he was doing, we had a lot of arguments. We were both very unhappy. But I was very young (I was just 20 when we were married) and I was honestly doing my very best.
Eventually, my husband allowed one of his loser mates to come and stay, a man I believed was a threat to our daughters (he had prior convictions). I was pregnant at the time with our 4th child. This man was a terrible influence on my husband and introducing things into our home that I didn’t want around my children, but that ultimately, I had no control over, because my husband was the head of our home. We ended up arguing, he assaulted me (he was drunk – he’s not usually a violent man) and then he left.
I’m sure you can imagine how desperate I was. I prayed a lot, and asked the elders of the church for advice. They told me that as far as they could see (they were aware of the issues in our home) I would be best to not allow him back until he could make our home safe for the family.
For 6 months, we were separated. He stayed with a friend and saw the children on a regular basis, he got himself off drugs, off alcohol, and quit smoking. He came back to church. He made the decision to serve the Lord again; essentially, he became the man I fell in love with, once again.
When he came back to church, I promised him I would truly submit to him, and he tells me every day now, how much he loves me, how much he treasures me, how much he appreciates me, and how much he appreciates my gift of submission (he calls it a gift).
Does my husband have to jump through a lot of hoops to satisfy my feelings to make me want to submit to him? No. Not anymore. Did he have to jump through hoops because I was adamant he wasn’t coming back to me until he had got himself off drugs and alcohol and was committed to not smoking away the grocery money? Possibly. But now he is grateful that he had to jump through them, because now he is again walking with the Lord.
These days, my husband doesn’t have to jump through anything, but he goes out of his way to show me how much he loves me. Even something as simple as bringing me home a chocolate bar when I’m battling depression. He’s a good man.
Wow, KK, your husband has a treasure in you. Not many women are willing to fight that hard for their marriages. I am very glad you got your husband back!
I think that laying down a boundary to protect your family isn’t acting in rebellion against God or disrespecting your husband. He was destroying himself and was allowing harm into his home. Your intention was that he turn away from his foolishness, not revenge.
All the best to you.
Lori,
there are both men and women suffering in bad marriages, wondering why on earth they ever got married. It seems a bit unfair to single out women as the ones who are ruining it for everyone. Men do that too.
We’re all human, with needs that we want met and with a tendency to be selfish. Lindsay’s post describes a selfish wife, but there are a lot of selfish husbands too, who may act out their selfishness in a different way but they’re still destroying their marriages and families with their behavior.
There are a lot of people suffering in their marriages, trying their best to stay, to renew their commitment, to keep trusting that God will turn things around. I don’t understand why He doesn’t always fix it, especially when one spouse is really going all out to keep his/her side of the agreement.
Ruth,
God in His Word said that a foolish woman tears her home down and a wise woman builds it up. He spoke multiple times in Proverbs about quarreling, contentious, and nagging wives. Yes, there are some truly evil men but the ones we’ve worked with are not evil but have done some bad things. All I know is that men are a lot easier to win to their wives than women are to win to their husbands from our mentoring.
Hi KK,
I’m way late on responding, just seeing this now. Wow, you are in NZ; beautiful place. I hope you all are recovering from the quake. There is way more that needs to be said than can be said here [as you noted] but in short the church at large has been speaking the fables that Paul and the OT prophets speak of – “merchandising” His people.
Response to answer your email, point by point – you comment first:
1) “I believe using the word ‘equally’ in a marriage partnership simply because this is how it is – even if a wife is in true Biblical subjection to her husband, she is still “equal” to him in every way that matters.” That is an oxymoron: If A does not equal B than A=B cannot be true. That is classic post-modernism = no one knows truth except what you want it to be in that moment; no different than Pilot to Christ: “what is truth?” Rather, Truth is very objective. A wife cannot be in subjection and then not in subjection, as you say. She is one or the other. We are in subjection to Christ or we are not. One or the other.
2) “The Bibles teaches that a man leaves his family and cleaves to his wife and the two become one – does that not indicate equality, a true partnership, working together in unison? Sure, the roles may be different, but they are both equally important.” No, it is not a partnership. We become one with Christ, but we are not His partner, we are not equally as important as He is. Further, being “one” is different: my head is one in body with my leg [we go everywhere together] but my head tells my leg what to do. And you have left out the ‘submit in everything’ and ‘obey’ in this statement. My leg submits to my head.
3) “The Bible speaks many times about men and women being created equally.” No, the Bible never once says that the man and woman were created equally. Never once; that is simply not true. And further, scripture never says that the woman was ever created in the image of God. It only says that Adam was created in the image of God and firmly implies that the woman was not [including 1Cor11:7]. Further, Adam was made from the earth in the image of “Us”, the 3-in-1 Trinity and God then breathed into him. Eve was made at a later time from the body of the man [showing subjection to him] after Adam had exercised his authority to have dominion, and it was never recorded that God breathed into the woman. [I have written an extensive paper on this]. Some cite Gal 3:28 “neither Jew not Greek, male nor female” for their ‘equal’ argument but that is only in Heaven, after death; Jews are still Jews and women are still women until death; and to further prove the point ‘there is not marriage in heaven’ so no need for male or female there.
4) “Ephesians 5:21 says ‘Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.’ Does that not indicate to you that both spouses are equal?” That scripture is written to the brethren; to men. Eph 5:22 starts the specifics of marriage. Paul would not say in v21 for husbands to submit to wives and then in the next verse say for wives to submit to husbands. That is a non-truth, a lunacy of magnificent proportions and one of the common lies of many pastors and authors.
I have personally come to define the word “equality” as to mean ‘death.’ At its core is an unthankful heart, an unrighteous jealousy, and a desire to be something that God has not made us or made for us [a position]. We know how jealousy works: someone else got the promotion, the recognition, the new car, the better something. Yet scripture cries “Be satisfied with Me !!!” I am your all.” I encourage you to only use the exact phrasing and words in scripture, most always from the KJV. The church has come to describe and define God in the language of the world, not His language.
We may not like what we read in scripture, we may not be used to what we read in scripture, but we are fighting God if we remain at odds with it. The church has been transferring power to women in all this and it has gone unrecognized like the frog in the slowly increasing temperature water; an Illicit Authority has gone to women over the centuries. I understand that it is hard to give up something that you thought was yours. But it must be done. God’s Word will not come back to Him void.
Paul says to ask your husband at home: both, really look at scripture and be true to self. That is doing Rom 12:2, dropping conformity to the world and living the words of Christ.
Blessings in Christ Jesus, our very credible Lord.
KK,
“…holy conversation”?
1 Pe 3:1-6. By your behavior…. No where is there talking to win your husband over.
Ken,
My wife has single handedly turned me to the manosphere and into a sexist.
I use to prefer hiring women and trusted women more. I believed my wife when she said I was mean, not doing enough, didn’t deserve sex etc.
I am completely and utterly immune to my wife’s comments now. Unless she has good advice (rarely), I do my own thing. She is in shock due to the fact that now she says I use to be so nice and open minded. How is that possible when she use to call me mean and a misogynist in the past? Now my (use to me mean) is now nice and now I am mean and sexist.
I agree that women shouldn’t vote too. Single mothers and welfare moms will vote for more benefits and the right to more of their ex’s money. It’s funny how they say they are strong and independent, but extract their ex spouses money and home and dole off the government. Can’t do both sister…
Ruth,
LOL. Kids are a barometer for fairness and who is right or wrong. They can only be manipulated for so long. To assign a father or mother the blame for them not visiting the other is ignorant. She is not being visited because her ex “abusive” husband was probably right and they now see it.
Lori—You often say that you write this blog for women. Lately, however, the comments seem to be overtaken by frustrated, unhappy men. If they are looking for help, I believe they should seek it elsewhere since what you teach is for women and does not address the man’s role. If they want a forum to share their views, they should get blogs of their own. And if they simply want to complain how women are the cause of all marital problems and skirt the topic of domestic discipline—I’m sure there are places on the internet to accommodate them.
Personally, this is not what I expect to find on a blog written for women by a woman and it makes me uncomfortable (NOT in a convicted by the Spirit way, in a “this is creepy, and I don’t like interacting with strange men online way”). It is your blog and you can take it in any direction you choose, but rather than just fade away I wanted to speak the truth to you in love and hope you will receive it as such, and consider if this is the audience you want. God bless you in your ministry, Lori, and many years of health and happiness to you and yours. ❤️
There are only two women that I can recall that don’t like this, Vikki. I will allow men’s comments on my blog unless Ken tells me not to since I don’t see a problem with it. Ken writes posts for me and interacts in the comment section and I like it!
Blessings.
This is Tim from the original comment. I just ran across this post today, 3 years later. I dont really understand your thinking here. How am supposed to tell if a woman is REALLY god fearing? My ex went to church regularly, that did not prove anything. Am I really supposed to risk my life only ability to read a womans mind? If you look at the statistics you will see that Christians are somewhat more likely to divorce than agnostics. How can you suggest that thos is a basis to risk EVERYTHING YOU HAVE AND MAY MAKE IN YOUR LIFE? Its just foolish and u Christian to take such risks.