Should Women Teach the Bible in Public?
As many of you know, I have become convicted about teaching the Bible (theology) to women. I love learning from God’s Word and want to know the truth of it above all. I teach all of the biblical principles of godly womanhood which includes a lot of Bible verses but I don’t claim to be a theologian, pastor, elder, or deacon since God has made it clear in His Word that men are to be the preacher/teachers of the Word. I am seeing too many women preacher/teachers teaching things that are contrary to the Word of God to believe that God wants them teaching the Bible to other women. Plus, they usually teach everything but what the Bible has to say about being a godly woman.
I have decided to research two verses by going again to the commentaries of old to search out my convictions. I love these commentaries because they haven’t been swayed by feminism or political correctness. The verse I am looking at is 1 Timothy 2:11, “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.”
“According to St. Paul, women are not allowed to be public teachers in the church; for teaching is an office of authority. But good women may and ought to teach their children at home the principles of true religion. Also, women must not think themselves excused from learning what is necessary to salvation, though they must not usurp authority. As woman was last in the creation, which is one reason for her subjection, so she was first in the transgression.” From this comment, women are to learn the Word of God from male leaders in the church and they are to learn in silence. Then, they are to go home and teach their children what they have learned.
“Let the woman learn in silence – Listen attentively to instruction, without attempting to teach in public.” This goes against most teaching we hear today. There are many women who teach the Bible in public these days and they have no problems teaching men and women. I just had a thought. The reason these women don’t normally teach the biblical principles of godly womanhood is because they can’t or it would judge them as not obeying it. They are not learning in silence with all subjection and they usually aren’t keepers at home under the submission of their husbands.
“With all subjection—not ‘usurping authority’ (1 Timothy 2:12). She might teach, but not in public (Acts 18:26).” Yet, another commentary of old saying that women should not be teaching out in public. If we look at all the commands to women, there’s nothing that tells women to be known for teaching the Bible in public. Not one command or example.
“The apostle goes on to give some other instructions to women, how they should behave themselves in public worship, in the church of God; he would have them be learners and not teachers, sit and hear, and learn more of Christ, and of the truth of the Gospel, and to maintain good works; and he would have them learn in silence, and not offer to rise and speak, under a pretense of having a word from the Lord, or of being under an impulse of the Spirit of the Lord, as some frantic women have done; and if they should meet with anything, under the ministry of the word, they did not understand, or they had an objection to, they were not to speak in public, but ask their own husbands at home.”
Learners and not teachers. Learn in silence. Not offer to rise and speak. They were not to speak in public. All things that we don’t hear from preachers today. This would offend many rebellious women of today. (Nothing about God’s Word offends me and I love to study it to know exactly what God requires of me.)
“Spiritual receptivity and activity in domestic life were recognized as the appropriate destiny of women, and therefore the female sex was excluded from the public discussion of religious subjects. Though in Christ there is no distinction, yet Christianity does not put an end to the natural distinctions ordained by God; it recognizes them in order to inform them with its higher life.” God’s ordained roles for the sexes is beautiful and create order. Women are to be known for having gentle and quiet spirits. Our role is not inferior to men in any way but it is different and it is good.
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence” (1 Timothy 2:12) Let’s look at the old commentaries on this similar verse.
“The whole purpose of these weighty admonitions of the great founder of the Gentile Churches relegates Christian women to their own legitimate sphere of action and influence—the quiet of their own homes… St. Paul shows what is the only proper sphere in which woman should work, and in which she should exercise her influence and power; while man’s work and duties lay in the busy world without, woman’s work was exclusively confined to the quiet stillness of home. The Apostle then proceeds to ground these injunctions respecting the duties in public and private of the two sexes upon the original order of creation, and upon the circumstances which attended the fall.” Keepers at home. Homes take a lot to run smoothly and there is a lot of work to be done in the home especially when there are children. Learn to love being at home, women. Find contentment there. It is a good place to be.
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, They may teach in private, in their own houses and families; they are to be teachers of good things.” I love teaching in the privacy of my own home. I don’t have to fly anywhere, stay in hotels, leave my husband or grandchildren. I’m able to visit by aged mother and father, and take care of my home. I don’t want to leave my home and I love being a teacher of “good things” (Titus 2:3) to younger women as the Lord commands older women.
“The first argument, why it is not lawful for women to teach in the congregation, because by this means they would be placed above men, for they would be their masters: and this is against God’s ordinance.” When women seek to teach other women the Bible, these women they are teaching are learning and listening to women instead of men as God has directed them to learn from. Some of these women preachers/teachers are leading women astray. I see it happening. “God spoke to me so this word is for you…” Many times, these women eventually have no problem standing in front of and teaching men.
It’s become very obvious to me what this means for women. God made it clear exactly what He wants women to teach other women in Titus 2:3-5. There is absolutely no guesswork in this. If you are an older women, teach these good things to younger women. Allow godly men to teach them the majority of the Bible.
48 thoughts on “Should Women Teach the Bible in Public?”
Isn’t it something that nobody questioned this up to about the 60’s and 70’s? I just can’t believe the widespread deception in the church today. Even my 78 yr old father thinks that women should preach because they need to use their talents. Thank you Lori for being so bold.
I researched just yesterday when Women’s Bible Studies began and I found this from Wikipedia:
“The commonality of having a women’s minister in Christian churches has increased over the past few decades…In more recent times, the need for a more prominent authority from women in the Christian church has emerged due to the increasing number of women attending church. Research done in 2000 by The Barna Group Barna Group shows that women are the driving force in church attendance, as 9 out of 10 women in the United States classify themselves as Christian. The research proves that 69% of women are looking for connection, a connection in the Bible, small group meetings, and time with mentors.”
The connection these women should be getting is learning from older, godly women the ways of godly womanhood. I have found that younger women with teachable hearts crave this teaching from older women. Instead, what is offered to them are “Bible Studies” that are simply the study a book written by a woman.
Do you feel that Debi Pearl’s book should not be used in Bible study, as it is written by a woman? Is the same true for your book? Should it just be read at home for quiet contemplation?
…Because God said so. Thanks, Lori, for being honest to women about what His word REALLY says.
“Usurp authority” strikes me hard. “Usurp” 831G = ‘authenteo’ = ’to act of oneself; to dominate’ [combo of ‘autos’ and ‘hentes’ meaning self-worker’] I suggest that this means worker of iniquity, of witchcraft, for rebellion is the sin of witchcraft and this is rebellion to His word. Further, 830G ‘authairetos’ = ‘self-chosen, voluntary, of own accord’ and 829G ‘authades’ = self-pleasing, arrogant, self-willed.’ This is the same root as word “author” [making your own story, your own words] and “authentic” [or in this case the opposite: women being unauthentic to the word]; and “authorization” …women are not authorized to do this.
It doesn’t matter how smart women are or that they are more gifted speakers or have more free time. I’ve seen many women that, from the carnal POV, are much ‘better’ then men. But God does not reward that. In fact worse; it kindles God’s anger …at ‘the blasphemy of the Word of God.’
Consider a fundamental thought: scripture says God has elected His people before the creation of the earth. We don’t save anyone. He doesn’t need women to teach. All we do is obey; He rewards obedience to only one thing: His Word, Jesus Christ. But we scream “lives must be saved” and “how inefficient.” My own grandmother left for China by herself [but under the authority –ha! –of some mission group] in 1920 to go ‘save souls.’ BS. She came home to be a supremely controlling woman …with that usurped authority of the modern church … that has dramatically effected [at least] 3 generations of her family since with very noticeable [rebellion] witchcraft.
What feeds this big lie to the church? As in understanding all things, foundation truth starts in Genesis; [from your post: “Paul grounds his thoughts upon the order in creation and circumstances attendant to the fall” ie: Genesis]. Only the man was created in the image of God. Only the man was given dominion. Only the man was given the instruction of that tree. Scripture is written only to men, for them to administer and distribute. Adam was not deceived nor transgressed in the Garden. Sure, these are unheard of and will take time [not afforded here] to unravel the lies; but start looking for yourself by asking your husband or father or elder. I mean really look, with unbiased eyes. The likes of John Piper and his group of ‘Complementarians’ [and most all others] –putting women in teaching and leadership next to or above men — is that blasphemy of the Word of God.
“Go into all the world” is given to men. Men are in the ‘gates of the city’ discussing principle and politics. I was really convicted of this principle just before the election …that a woman could not be president. I did not like Trump too much but it hit me like bricks that God was going to abandon America for good if that happened [Isaiah 3:12]. Just thereafter I realized I was supporting women leading and correcting men with my monetary support of two ‘wonderful’ national organizations that train men and women to do just that. But I was previously sold on it because they were legal groups that were fighting abortion, homosexuality, religious rights, etc with much success. I, me, myself …I was promoting the Blasphemy of the Word of God. I had to write the Leaders and explain why I was no longer funding them. God’s word does not return to him void. We don’t justify our means with some hopeful ends. Our ‘end-around’ took us out of bounds and we are now getting called out on it.
Usurp authority: I’ve called it the Illicit Authority of women …taking the Sanctity of Command given men by God. God is in the process of returning that command and this post is part of His spirit and truth doing just that.
Powerful Lori. Powerful. Blessed be the Word of the Lord. So be it!
Both of our books teach exactly what God calls older women to teach younger women so they are good but I never called it a “Bible Study” when I taught Debi’s book to others, even groups of women. I called it “mentoring/teaching women” the ways of godly womanhood.
Love this post!
Thank you for this teaching, Lori! I have always felt uneasy watching women “minister” on a public stage and appreciate the in depth study of God’s Word on this.
I have gone to many all day Ladies Conferences and wondering what you think of these. The last one the “older “lady speaker taught on Mary and Martha. I found it to be helpful and wasn’t a Bible Study.
Thanks for the input!
Hi dear Lori !
Yesterday a Christian friend of mine asked me to say a little word at the Baby Shower of her daughter-in-law. A word with biblical content.
I am 40 (almost) and the participants (all women) will be younger and older than me.
Once they asked me the same thing in a Bridal Shower, and I said a word that was directly for the young bride, because I wasn’t comfortable to teach the older women. (It was after reading “Created to Be His Help Meet).
I think to do the same thing at the Baby Shower : to speak directly to the future young mom and not to the entire audience. I think of speaking about the wisom we should ask from God as moms. To seek His advices and wisdom daily as we care and train our child.
I feel comfortable with that, knowing that I am teaching a younger woman the ways of God for us women…
What do you think about that kind of setting and teaching ? Do you have an advice for me ?
Speaking the truth in love is always a good thing, Daniele. The problem I see is with women preachers/teachers directly teaching a room full of women theology instead of what the Lord has asked older women to teach younger women. Of course, we can give words of wisdom and answer questions to women who may ask us something about the Bible but be careful to not teach/preach the Word in a church (body of believers) setting where a group of Christians are present. I believe God gave men the ministry of teaching the whole of Scripture for a reason, as clearly stated in His Word.
This is something you will have to search Scriptures and decide for yourself. I do believe women can share stories and verses with women and speak the truth in love. I believe Paul forbids women teaching the Word (theology – the study of the Bible in depth) for the reasons he gave. If women are not to teach men the Word because men were created first and the leaders, plus women are more easily deceived, what makes us think it’s okay for women to teach other women the Word? This is where we need to seek the Lord in prayer, ask our husbands, and use discernment.
I have too, Melissa. It doesn’t seem biblically that this is where women are supposed to be.
Thank you! I am thankful I have these great old commentaries to go and search out answers.
Okay, thanks Lori !
I agree with you : )
Blessings,
Daniele
Dear Lori,
I like your blog very much. Thank you for this ministry! I’m a young wife and mother, and I’m happy to learn from wise women like you. But I’m confused a bit now.
What do you think about women who prophesy? I think Paul writes it’s okay (with their head veiled):
“Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonoreth her head; for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven.” (1 Chorinthians 4-5)
Does it mean that women should phropesy – but just at home?
And here the Bible says that a woman and her husband are teaching a man:
“Now a certain Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by race, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the scriptures. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spake and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, knowing only the baptism of John: and he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more accurately.” (Acts 18,24-26)
Maybe is it okay at home? Should I explain something for a man if we are at a social evening? Of course I allow my husband to respond a theological question first but sometimes he thinks I should answer or me too after him.
Another question: what do you think about young wives who write a Christian blog? Is it bad? Should they wait to become wiser and older?
And my last question: shouldn’t women write about theological questions? Or they should – for women only?
Thanks for your answers! And sorry for my English, it isn’t my mother tongue.
As with other comments Dave, you have some truth captured but seem far too dogmatic and over the top for me especially when you want to carry things to a new level … (like rebellion goes to witchcraft and John Piper is now into Blasphemy because of his complementarian approach to marriage). Generally Lori deletes or edits any comments making accusations against godly men and teachers, and rightfully so. And John Piper is one of our best!
We know we live in a world where male leadership in the church is waning, and the church needs to decide if God Word’s is authoritative on this matter or not. But I don’t see the benefit in pointing fingers at individuals and organizations run and led by godly men that are making a difference for Christ just because they don’t hold my theology on this important position. We need to speak the truth and yet be open to others who are true Believers and thoughtful people with different conclusions or we have no Church at all. For unity in the church was one of Christ’s most important goals and admonitions. We can let Him sort out our differences when we see him face to face. We are to practice the admonitions of Eph 4. with all people, especially with believers.
” and if they should meet with anything, under the ministry of the word, they did not understand, or they had an objection to, they were not to speak in public, but ask their own husbands at home.”
What are women to do if they have an unbelieving husband or their husband doesn’t feel capable of teaching or explaining the Bible to their wives?
Thank you and I don’t want to become legalistic about this; making up rules that aren’t biblical so I will try and answer you from what I have found to be true.
The topic of 1 Cor. and women prophesying came up on Facebook so I looked to the commentaries for answers. Here are a few:
“It may be further observed, however, that the fact that Paul here mentions the custom of women praying or speaking publicly in the church, does not prove that it was right or proper. His immediate object now was not to consider whether the practice was itself right, but to condemn the manner of its performance as a violation of all the proper rules of modesty and of subordination. On another occasion, in this very epistle, he fully condemns the practice in any form, and enjoins silence on the female members of the church in public; 1 Corinthians 14:34.”
“This instance of women speaking in public worship is an extraordinary case, and justified only by the miraculous gifts which such women possessed as their credentials; for instance, Anna the prophetess and Priscilla (so Ac 2:18). The ordinary rule to them is: silence in public (1Co 14:34, 35; 1Ti 2:11, 12). Mental receptivity and activity in family life are recognized in Christianity, as most accordant with the destiny of woman. This passage does not necessarily sanction women speaking in public, even though possessing miraculous gifts; but simply records what took place at Corinth, without expressing an opinion on it, reserving the censure of it till 1Co 14:34, 35. Even those women endowed with prophecy were designed to exercise their gift, rather in other times and places, than the public congregation.”
Note that Priscilla was with her husband so we have no idea if she said much at all to this man. If your husband thinks you should answer another man then this is who you must listen to and obey.
On the question of young wives writing Christian blogs, this is for them to come to their own conclusions. I am just giving mine but it doesn’t seem to cross the line as much as women standing up and looking/sounding/acting like preachers in a church in front of a large group of women and teaching the Word of God which God made clear is a ministry given to men.
Your last question I will just give you something to ponder that I have said many times: If the reason God doesn’t want women teaching men the Word is because men were created first and are the leaders and women are more easily deceived, why would it be okay for women to teach other women the Word? This is what I have grappled with and has convicted me to not teach the Word of God anymore unless it pertains to godly womanhood.
Search the Scriptures out for themselves and thankfully, we have a lot of great commentaries written by men who have studied the Word. I have learned the Word from mostly Michael Pearl and love his teachings but I also listen to many other men. There are many great preachers on YouTube they can learn from and even asking some godly, older women on a one-to-one basis who have studied the Word for many years would be fine, in my opinion.
Thank you very much!
There are lots of things for me to think about. 🙂
Hi Mrs. Lori!
Your article is spot on and it is so sad seeing how far away churches are falling away from what the Bible teaches. One question I have that has been on my heart for some time when contemplating the Scriptures is if this also applies to Bible classes. I know some Bible classes are taught where you have a man leading the class but women are allowed to comment and read scripture. For a few years now I have felt uncomfortable with women speaking up and out during class (with some on the edge of actually taking over the class lol) and I’m not sure if it’s okay for me to do. What are your thoughts on this.
With what I understand today, I would sit quietly and learn from him just as I do all the men I have learned the Word from, Chelsea.
Dave,
This is from Genesis 1: ” 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
How can you deny that woman was made in the image of God and given dominion along with man?
And the apostle Paul tells us that in Christ we all have equal standing before God: “27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
I believe God wants men to be the ones who oversee the Church and the home, but that’s not to mean that men should stand between God and women and administer God’s word to them. As it says in 1 Timothy 2 “5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
The word for “men” in that verse is ἄνθρωπος, not ἄνδρες (as in Ephesians 5:25). Anthropos is “human”, not just “man”.
I agree with Ken. We have to be very careful that we don’t get carried away trying to make Scripture say things it doesn’t say.
As the lovely Jilly, who often posted on here often said, remember The Love Chapter (1.Corinthians 13).
Have a blessed day.
I agree with what you said. The ladies things I attend are on the smaller side but it is probably more of an encouragment than an in depth study of something.
I never was into the big Beth Moore or other type of get togethers.
Am I wrong to think that gals shouldn’t be going off to Bible college. I hear the argument so they can help their husband in ministry. However, most times the wife than is doing more of an in depth Bible Study.
I don’t think this is wrong as long as the woman never used it as being spiritually superior to her husband as women are prone to do.
Hi, according to scripture women are allowed to prophesy in the church, as long as their head is covered and of course it must be a true word from the Lord. Also a women can tell a man the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the way of salvation. Speaking to people on the street is not the church. The people outside of the church are dead and we are allowed to evangelize. Now once in the church you are to keep silence unless a prophesy from the Lord is given. Sometimes commentaries can lead us astray because like all they are simply men. We must be able to discern and for me the scripture is enough. As we grow in our walk we will be able to discern. Women are NOT ALLOWED to be preachers, apostles, bishops, deacons etc. It’s out of order and Cleary against scripture. Women are to teach children. Let us rightly divide the word of God.
One more thing.
Jesus is The Word made flesh. John 1 says “14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
The Living Word, Jesus, spoke to women directly and he told a woman, Mary, to take the good news of his resurrection back to the disciples. The Word is for women too.
Of course the Word is for women. No one ever said it is not! Jesus is the One who came to give women value but this doesn’t mean women can teach nor usurp authority over men in the church and they are called to be silent in the church and ask their husbands at home, if they have a question. Mary didn’t “preach” to the disciples. She shared the great news that Jesus had risen from the dead!
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
Dear Lori,
Dave specifically said that Scripture is written only to men. I find this not only erroneous, but offensive.
Blessings!
The Bible never states that women are allowed to prophesy in the church. The verse that speaks about this isn’t in a church setting but about the relationship between a husband and his wife.
“3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. (There is nothing in these verses that make it appear as this is to be done in a church setting.)
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.” (1 Cor. 11)
The Apostle Paul is clear that women are to be quiet in the church and ask their husbands at home if they have a question.
This is the order in a household and a church setting. When women pray they should have there heads covered always. The church was actually people gathering into homes and not church organizations. We are to pray without ceasing as well so with that being said we should keep our heads covered so we are always to be on prayer.
But I will study the chapter more…I want to find out the truth..I don’t want to be deceived regarding the matter so I will search the scripture more.
Hi Ruth,
Thanks for the sincere questions. I did not have to put the statements that you refer to in my previous comment. I intentionally put them in for those that desire to look past what they have been preached their whole life. I know that will be few. I know they are confrontational and offensive. But I try to model my way after the Great Confronter, after the “Rock of Offense.” “I came not to bring peace, but a sword” “The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is His name.” We don’t hear these in the church …but that is our Lord.
The space allotted here is insufficient because the lies of the church are so many and for so long it cannot be unraveled overnight. I say all this to plant a seed. I’ve got 700-900 pages written on the offenses of the church [its title may be The Rock of Offense], all written for men to “prove all things; hold fast that which is God”, to get men into the Word and to come to know the real Jesus, so that men may then be “casting down arguments….that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.” That is my purpose.
Your statement on love [You seem to imply I don’t love but my intent is: “I would rather offend others than disobey God.” — Lori Alexander] is fairly easy to respond to so I will do so first. Let’s go to the Gold Standard, the very words of Christ Himself. He defines love for us, in every situation: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” Love is –in every situation – keeping His commandments, His word. That is why it is so important to REALLY know what His word says, so we know how to act. We can NOT love them by telling them a lie, even ignorantly so, about the word. And, it is all an ACTION; keeping is an action and that action is OBEDIENCE. So if we love the Lord and — as in the second greatest commandment – our neighbor, we will apply our obedience to the Word to all that comes our way. Our life is solely about obedience to the Word. However, the church will teach you to be busy sacrificing ….but “obedience is better than sacrifice.”
I understand that no one hears of these statements I made about Genesis and ‘image’ in the pulpit. The church is largely status quo. That is why Lori’s blog is bringing life in her area; the church does not preach the stuff ‘older’ women are instructed to teach. And, what I am saying is that there is a story behind the story that Lori is addressing; a purpose of God.
I contend that on this topic the church is selling you the whole world at the expense of your soul. The church is actually merchandising you, to make money off of you and gain power from you. Consider“…false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord [His word] …And many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be spoken evil of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you …their damnation slumbereth not” 2Pet2:1-3. Now we could say that these are ‘those other preachers.’ But is that so? I suggest His church has consciously been hiding the truth of God, the anger and damnation of God; but why? …to MERCHANDISE church goers; to live off of them, and to send them to Hell. Read it. Books and donations and conferences and ….
Now this just doesn’t sit well with the gentleness of the likes of John Piper. I’ve been to a Piper conference. I’ve sat 15 feet from him for hours. I’ve read many of his books and think he is very strong on most issues, including divorce on which I suggest he is the strongest of anyone. I like the guy! But he gets marriage wrong [and you can feel his hurt in his book “Momentary Marriage”; the name itself says he gets it wrong]. It is a pathetic wandering in the wilderness. He is hurting. I repeat: this to emphasize we need to test the preachers [and test me].
And consider Ezekiel: “I am Against My shepherds …I will cause them to stop feeding my sheep.” I suggest that this is now in process and His “army” of men are now returning to scripture FOR THEMSELVES. I am seeing that more and more. And that is a good thing! [One more curve ball/ seed plant: the church as we have known it for 500 years is going away. The REAL church is going to the household, to prepare for the coming persecution. Discussion for another day.]
END PART 1
PART 2
Now to the primary issue Ruth was questioning: image and male/female. Paul’s words on “neither male nor female” refer to after death, in heaven. The church plays this supposed card — that it applies on earth — but if that was so then why all the individual instruction to male and female to act differently; it would render them meaningless if we were all the same [and hence why the church has fed into supporting transgender bathrooms and same-sex marriage]. Christ said there are no husbands and wives in heaven. That’s what Paul meant, including that EQUALITY then occurs for women …in heaven, for we are all ‘like the angels.’
Image is a longer story; I’ve got 24 small print pages on it, I’ll reduce to some key scriptures:
1 Cor 11:7 “…he is the image and glory of God; but [not] the woman [for she] is the glory of the man.”
Here Paul clearly makes note that the male is the image of God and notoriously leaves image out in describing the woman. And to articulate this more emphatically Paul transitions with “but” which is a contrasting —“as opposed to”– word that further indicates that we find the image of God only in the man and he alone reveals the glory of God; and the woman is not the image of God nor is she the glory of God but she is solely the glory of the man. She does not give glory directly to God; she gives glory indirectly to God through His image on earth – the man. This is remarkably clear, not only by notoriously leaving out any reference to God’s image in woman but making a serious implication that she actually was not made in the image of God and is not the glory of God.
Gen 1:26-27 “And God said, Let us make man [Adam–the male (#120 Strong’s)- same as Gen 2:7] in our own image, after our likeness: and let them [the males] have dominion …. So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He HIM [‘created He (God) HIM (the male)]; male and female he created he them [male and female].”
Note the last phrase is not part of the ‘image’ phrase, it is part of the broad summary of the 6+1 days of creation found in Ch1– identifying simply that there was male and female creations by God. Details of their separate creations are found in Genesis 2, showing the separation of time and method and substance of their individual creations. The female was specifically not mentioned in the ‘image’ phrase above – when He [God] made him [Adam] – and limited image to ‘him.’ It is apparent that the Hebrew ‘adam’ here is limited to Adam, the first man. All references to ‘man’ Genesis Ch 1-9 are clearly Adam or the male: #120 ‘adam’ and #376 ‘iysh.’
Gen5:3-4 “Adam …begat a son in his own likeness and after his image …and the days of Adam after …were 800 years; and he begat sons and daughters.” Image is passed to sons. Note also that the general statement [includes daughters] follows a specific statement [sons only] as the Genesis author did in 1:26-27.
Gen 2:5-17 “there was not a man [male] to till the ground…God formed man [“in the image of God created He him” Gen 1:27] of the dust of the ground…and there [the garden] He put the man…to tend and keep it ….And the Lord God commanded the man … [about the tree, as part of his dominion; responsibility].”
In Ch 2 it is also clear that dominion instructions and the responsibility for the commands of God were given to the man, before the woman was created; no woman mentioned with these words from God;
Gen 2:18 “I will make an helpmeet for him.”
It is interesting to note here that the woman was made by the singular “I” God while the man was made by and in the plural “Us” God [Gen1:26]. This plural, while addressing the male, and singular, while addressing the female shows further difference, which further reinforces the ‘unequal’ in the creation of man and woman.
Gen2:22 “And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made He a woman, and He brought her to the man.”
That is it. That is the extent of the record of the creation of the woman, notoriously without mention of the image of God, she being created in 1) a different fashion – without the ‘Us’ of the Trinity of God [with the “I” of God in v2:18 above], and 2) from a different substance than the man — from Adam’s flesh and not from the earth, and 3) at a different time — after Adam had already exercised dominion and after it was determined by God that it was not good for the man to be alone. And note that she was presented to him. He was not presented to her, nor a mutual introduction, for she was his helpmeet, for his glory [1Cor11:7] — by God’s design.
Gen 2:23 She “is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh and she shall be called woman, because she is taken out of the man.”
The man declares, in exercising his dominion — including over her– as part of his image of representing God, that Eve is part of him, and so names her.
Brief review and Key point: Ch 2 of Genesis makes it clear that the man was formed at a different time, in a different fashion and for a different purpose than in the forming of the woman, emphasizing the inequality male and female. Do we really think God made a mistake and didn’t make a woman for the man to begin with, at the same time He made Adam, …from lack of insight? Was God not good because He said “It is not good for man to be alone?” God had made every creature 2 x 2. Why not with mankind? How did he expect Adam to reproduce? Was God having a bad day? There is only one explanation for this strategy by God: God did this to emphasize the differences in the man and the woman. If there was no difference than He would have made them at the same time, out of the same material and it would have been recorded in one sentence like the rest of Genesis 1, like the others creatures, 2×2. But, God designed it this way to emphasize His image in Adam and that Adam would then use that image to express God’s character as he exercised sole dominion over all of God’s creation. God is a God of purpose.
Further, men have this image of God to love their own wife ‘as Christ loved the church.’
Key aspects of His image in men that I see in scripture are:
Jealous, authoritative, dominating, responsible, anger, wrath, hate, aggression, desiring to be known, competitive, confrontational, judging, warring, hard/harsh [vs soft], disciplined, law enforcing, penetrating, weeps, lion and lamb, demands respect, roots out evil, protects the Word, zealous, furious, fervent, creation oriented, etc.
People presuppose I hate women [and pastors]. I love them intensely. I’m used to this backlash, but I’m not deterred. There is a message to get out, and blood is on my hands if I don’t. “They hate him that rebuketh in the gate; they abhor him that speaketh up rightly ….[but rather] hate the evil and love the good and establish judgment [righteousness] in the gates.”
Obedience. Only obedience to the word. Blessings in the Word, that IS our Christ Jesus.
It says nothing about a church setting in these verses. Plus prophecy isn’t what many call it today; “a word from the Lord.” It is explained in 1 Corinthians 14:3, “But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.” It’s simply speaking to people truth in love which is in everyday life. There is not ONE example in the entire New Testament of a woman speaking out in a church setting since it was clearly forbidden.
Hi Lori,
thanks for your reply. I didn’t mean to imply that Mary was sent out to preach. Dave said that only men were sent out into the world to make disciples, and it’s true that Jesus spoke to the eleven on that occasion, but he also sent a woman out with the message of his resurrection. I’m not going to pass up a good opportunity to share the Gospel with a man just because I’m a woman.
If you read Dave’s original post you’ll find this: ” Scripture is written only to men, for them to administer and distribute. ” (4th paragraph)
Dave,
Thank you for your reply. Very lengthy, but some interesting thoughts.
Jesus had more than one thing to say about love. Yes, loving him is obeying his commandments, and his main commandment was that we love one-another as he loved us.
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13)
The way we should love each other is described in several passages including 1 Corinthians 13, especially verses 4-7; Ephesians 5:2, Philippians 2:1-8…. there are more, but the general picture is that love is action and requires some giving up of oneself, placing someone above ourselves, enduring hardship.
I won’t comment on your thoughts about the Church and John Piper.
Dave,
I believe that Galatians 26-29 refers to our standing before God now. When we put on Christ, we stand before God as heirs.
Consider also 1st. Corinthians 12:12-27 (I will come back to this passage again)
– Story of creation in Genesis 2 meant to highlight differences between male and female. I’ve always understood that to point towards unity in marriage. Genesis 2: ““This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man.”[i]
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”
Jesus also teaches that marriage is about two becoming one, and so does the apostle Paul, and both refer back to this passage.
– That passage in 1st Corinthians 11 has an interesting ending: “11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12 for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.”
– 1st Corinthians 12 talks about The Body of Christ and how the less honorable members are given greater honor. Supposing that women are weaker, less honorable (not made in the image of God) consider this:
“,the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it”
This passage says so much about love, about unity, about lifting each other up instead of trying to find ways to exercise more authority over those we think are below us.
As to man representing Christ in marriage, the actual, written instructions don’t include warring, penetrating, enforcing law, demanding respect or most of the elements on your list. Instead, the words are love, nourish, cherish, give honor as to the weaker vessel.
Dave, I don’t have more time. You seem to be on a mission that I can’t understand, let alone agree with. I agree that there needs to be more truth taught in the Church. I don’t think we live as church much at all these days, but ranting and writing long books about how wrong everyone else is hardly seems to be the best way to go about seeking reform. Change begins in us. Isn’t that the essence of what Lori teaches here? She’s always saying that change in marriage begins with the wife getting down to business and obeying the Bible. While I may not agree with everything she teaches, I most certainly agree with that one point: change must begin with us.
Thank you for the interesting conversation.
Thanks Ruth. Certainly this cannot be discussed in a short time on a blog. Your thought about ‘ranting in a long book about how wrong everyone is” is curiously similar to what the Bible is. Maybe that is what you are at odds with? Christ bringing salvation has no meaning unless He saves us from something. That something is the wrath of God that fills the OT. It did not go away as Christ confronted the church with it and much of NT is about (consider Revelation alone). We need to stop running from this. We cannot see the true need of His salvation without seeing our condition and the price He paid for the bloody trail we’ve left behind.
I know this is tough but Christ does not bring the (short term) peace that the world gives. His peace is forever.
Hi Ms Lori!
Your post comes in a timely manner. I have been quite dismayed in my church. The former church we attended had women preachers, now this current church we attend has no women preachers but the women are allowed to go into pulpit, read some announcements but they also mention a few things here and there which I dont think they ask the elders about the things they say beforehand. We also have a woman bible teacher in Sunday school. This woman always invites me to come but I always say I have to go cook which is not a lie. Should I just keep quiet and move on or is it my place to say something?
What I teach is very foreign in the Church today, Michelle. Ask your husband what he thinks you should do about it. It’s becoming more and more common for women to not be silent in the churches.
Thank you for your reply Ms Lori! My husband doesnt go to church due to his work every Sunday. He is also disappointed with this. I asked him if I should do anything, he said to leave it alone. And so I will. ?
Thank you Lori for your boldness, for speaking the word of God . This blog and the chatroom are such havens of truth. I keep hearing in despair of women being pastors and preachers in local churches, going to a million conferences as you say, leaving families behind for the sake of “ministry”- and not one christian around raising concerns. It is so good to read this. The truth indeed set us free! Thank you. I feel at home here!
I realize that I am a year late coming to this discussion, so I hope you still check comments on older blogs. I’m interested on which commentaries you used – I didn’t find the names listed. I’ve been looking up some other commentaries (mostly from the 1950s) and some agree with you while some don’t. Could you let me know which ones you quoted? Also, do you have writings from church fathers on this issue? Thanks!
I use the commentaries from this site: https://biblehub.com/
Lori, what about teaching children about the scriptures in a homeschooling or sunday school setting? I’d certainly not want my children to be taught by a woman if she’s prone to deception or if she’s not called to teach the bible. I’d be concerned about appearing or being a bible leader to my children as most Christian homeschool subjects are taught around scripture and theology- let alone I’d never want to decieve them! I’m confused and truly wanting to learn. Thanks.
Mothers absolutely should teach their children the Word of God!