Why Don’t Women’s Bible Studies Teach Godly Submission?
The discussion about women teaching the Word is a hot topic in today’s lukewarm culture but I never want to make rules that are not in the Word. If older women are to only teach other women what is in Titus 2:4, 5, they would absolutely have to teach some of the Bible. I have to use Bible verses to teach what good, modest, chaste, and sober are according the the Word. I teach them what a meek and quiet spirit. I teach them everything that the Word teaches women to be. For great theology, I try to point them to godly male preachers who have studied the Word for years.
Timothy Hammons has written an interesting post on this subject. I haven’t read anything else he has written but I agree with a lot of what he wrote in this article. He wrote about Titus 2:3-5, “We see no mention of older women teaching the younger women the word of God. The older women are to help the younger women with their primary calling: loving their husbands and children, working in the home, being kind and submissive to their own husbands. Far be it from the women’s ministries of our current age to ever teach younger women anything dealing with godly submission.” Agreed. Most female Bible teachers stay far away from submission and the one popular one that I do know has no problem calling herself a preacher and teaching men.
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church” (1 Corinthians 14:34, 35).
Mr. Hammons wrote: “The role of women in the church is quite clear to those who will actually look at what Scripture says. There is no call for women to be leading large masses of women in Bible studies, or at conferences, or any other such notion. According to the passage in Titus, and the way God created women, they are to be at home serving their husbands.” He is right. There is not one woman in the entire Bible that did what many popular Christian women are doing today since women are called to be keepers at home. These popular female “preachers” can’t possibly be keepers at home serving their husbands if they are traveling all around teaching women everything but Titus 2:3-5. These verses would convict them if they taught them. God has ordained men to teach the Word since men were created first and as the leaders, and women are easily deceived. (You sure can see this with many of the female preachers and teachers today.)
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Timothy 2:12-14)
Why don’t Women’s Bible Studies teach godly submission? I have no idea but I suspect it’s because many women no longer believe in it or they are afraid to teach it because of what feminism has done to women today, including Christian women. We should never fear what God has taught us to teach. From my experience, many Christian women are hungry for the truth of God’s Word concerning godly womanhood. Marriage isn’t working the way most women have been brought up. They see the devastation arguing and divorce causes since many of them are products of divorced parents and don’t want it for their children.
The best thing Women’s Bible Studies can do is to begin teaching what God has commanded older women to teach young women. The Church will never be strong if marriages aren’t strong. God’s vehicle to raising godly offspring is through godly, united parents with mothers home full time committed to training, disciplining, and teaching their children God’s Word. This world is in desperate need for godly children who become godly adults to contribute goodness, kindness, hard work, and preach the Gospel with their lives and words. This world needs Jesus. Are you bold enough to speak to the women leadership of your church and ask them to teach godly submission? Have you tried? I have and it wasn’t received well at all so I began a blog and decided to teach them this way instead.
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Titus 2:3-5
62 thoughts on “Why Don’t Women’s Bible Studies Teach Godly Submission?”
Lori, I have a question because this just came up as a discussion recently between my stepmom and me. She attends a church that has a woman preacher. I asked her how she felt about that since it is not biblically sound. She replied that the stipulation of only men teaching the Word is from the Old Testament, and one needs to only look to Mary Magdalene, since she was Jesus’ “right hand apostle”, to see that Jesus was perfectly o.k. with women teaching the people. We disagree greatly when it comes to religion, but I wanted to get your thoughts on what she said.
The two passages of Scripture that clearly teach that women are not to be preachers and teachers of the Word are in the body of my post and both are from the New Testament, specifically the New Covenant which is for the Church today.
Nowhere does it mention that Mary Magdalene was Jesus’ “right hand apostle.” This is made up garbage. Jesus picked 12 Apostles and this is still the number of Apostles He had. They were all men. All the writers of the Bible were men. All the Kings, Prophets, Priests, and Patriarchs were men. This is God’s perfect ordained order.
Thank you for linking to the article by Timothy Hammons. I clicked over there to read it myself. How I pray God will give holy boldness to more of the elders and deacons to preach this truth and warn women of spiritual dangers! Indeed, I do think many men are intimidated by women and feminism, unfortunately.
Wow Lori ! Well said, so full of truth, yet so hard to share with women in church … so I try to apply Titus 2.3-5 day after dayin my own life, hoping that this brings glory to God, and pleases my husband. Since I don’t have daughters to whom teach these things, I try to be a good example of a virtuous woman for my sons, so one day, when they are ready to marry, they will choose a bride with biblical characteristics ! And thanks again to be a courageous and truthful lady? ! Glory to God ! Have a nice week end? !
You took the words right out of my mouth, Lori. The only verses I have ever found in Scripture that speak of Mary Magdalene’s role tell us that she was a devout new follower of Jesus and served him and the apostles. The Bible doesn’t contradict itself! These verses line up with the other verses in the New Covenant that you wrote out for us in the post. The only place you’ll ever find words about Mary Magdalene that say otherwise are the in “Gnostic Gospels” that weren’t accepted into the Canon because their authorship was questionable, they weren’t divinely inspired, and they contained verses that contradicted Holy Scripture. We know that God is NOT the author of Confusion.
He sure isn’t, Lauren, and there is a lot of confusion in the Church of today because they have left the clear teachings of the Word.
I just reread his article and it is fantastic, Lady Virute! So few leaders of the Church or Christians men have the guts to teach these things because feminism has made women so dominant, offended so easily, and independent of any and all authority. It’s a shame because it not only hurts them but their husbands, children, and culture.
Thank you, Daniele for where it is very cold! 🙂 Teach your sons what to look for in a wife. This is so important. Not only do we need to model godly womanhood to our children and others, we need to speak it since our words have power, especially if they are backed by the Word of God.
Hi Lori,
Thanks for the link and comments. I went back and added links to two subsequent articles I wrote on the subject as well.
It is good to know that there are women, other than my wonderful wife, who long for men to be the spiritual leaders God called us to be. May He give us the grace to be so.
The LORD bless you…
Great! Thank you, Timothy. I will be sure to read them.
Thank you Lori.I have often wondered how these popular women evangelist/teachers live out what they are teaching if they are never home. It is very contradictory.Bless you for speaking the plain truth. Blessings,Dawn E. Brown
You’re welcome, Dawn. I love the Lord and His Truth!
Lori, hello!
I suspect many of these women “preachers” are encouraged by their husbands. Should they not then submit, if their husbands dont want or meed them at home and are “proud” of tjeir wife’s accomplushments?
Hi Lori,
My family and I just moved into a country town. There are at lest 3 churches in the area. Two of them have female ‘pastors’ the third, the male preacher teaches watery scripture and has a woman lead every third sunday of the month. I think a big problem is that people are so scriptually weak these days they are afraid to speak up. Or are easily swayed. My husband and I met these two women at christmas carols. Both were married with kids. I was able to observe one of the husbands from a distance. He looked totally defeated and pathetic. Sure the women were friendly enough. But obviously decieved. Some townsfolk keep asking when we will come to the church services. And we keep putting off our reasons for not coming. Instead my husband does a wonderful job of leading bible time. I get much more than listening to watery doctrine. These churches are also running a holiday program for the kids with craft and games etc. Sounds great until you are told the females will lead a mini sermon to the kids. My husband wont let our kids go because of that. So sad.
At a church we used to attend, they used to have trouble getting men to serve in the church. So the church secretary (male) went to the pastor and said he could find plenty of females ready to help, but few males.. so should they just give up trying to get the men to help and enlist females? Or should they press on and call on the men to help? The pastor wisely insisted on the latter. He said if they got the females to fill those roles, the males would back off even more.
I wonder if this is why I’m not comfortable with women’s retreats. I have never heard woman teach on godly submission in all the retreats I have ever been on. Even when I was single I never heard it taught. Also I hate being away from my family. Is that silly?
I’m going to follow your advice Lori and talk to whoever is in charge of women’s ministries at our church. We are still relatively new there but I’m sure there won’t be a problem with asking about teaching submission to our husbands and older women teaching the younger ones.
The only women I have ever seen teach this properly are Debi Pearl, Eliz Rice Handford, and Lori Alexander. And I pay close attention. Even the likes of Elisabeth Elliot were specifically teaching men. There are several authors that come very close to the truth, that say for wives to obey their husbands, but then gloss right past it with not teeth in it, eventually somehow giving the wife the final say in the marriage.
Timothy Hammons makes great points and is one of the very few pastors that get the role of women correct. Pastors have fertilized the disobedience of wives into the so-called feminism we have today: consider God saying “I am against my shepherds” [Ez34:10] and His many warnings of false prophets and teachers, OT and NT.
Scripture is inspired by God, through men, written to men, for men to administer in their ‘dominion’ over the earth. Certainly some scripture is specifically for the use of women but women do not administer it; men do and husbands in particular for wives, and wives’ Titus 2 instruction is still under the administration of men. If your husband should ask you not to discuss Titus 2 with women, then don’t do it. Just because he is wrong does not give a wife the authority to override her husband. There is no scripture instructing the wife to reserve the final authority if her husband is wrong. Please show me that scripture if I am wrong.
The topic of women teaching at all was mentioned. Hammons makes the correct observation of scripture. Women are not instructed to ‘go into all the world’; men are. Women don’t discuss or teach in the church or in the gates of the city; men do. Women don’t save anyone so if they are shut down by their husband, God still has a plan [“without a word” your obedience speaks!]. God has elected all His people before the creation of earth. So, men don’t save anyone either. The whole point of every last inkling of scripture is solely to fear the authority of scripture and to exhort and command us to obedience to it. That is it. All we have to do is obey. We don’t interject our plan if we don’t think something is working out in God’s plan, for then people won’t see Jesus. We all have roles and we all have sin nature and scripture clearly exhorts us to choose life by being obedient to our role, and HE will work all other things. Most in the church, however, fashion themselves as Christians because they are doing all these visible and ‘sacrificial’ things, all the while being disobedient in some material way. Our sole purpose is to respect His word, His authority. And the church does not get this about God because the wife and the pastor [and often the husband] don’t get this principle about marriage.
It is no coincidence that as the church was being slowly taken over by women in the 19th Century that the likes of Amy Carmichael were preparing to go off to the mission field, taking men’s roles into their own hands. No wonder we have women preachers today. While their message may be correct, the delivery is in sin. Certainly God works yet through sin, but let’s don’t tempt Him to wrath.
Hi Lori,
I believe there are a number of reasons submission is or is not taught:
#1: Difference of Scriptural interpretation – i.e. mutual submission of all Christians to one another including wives to husbands and husbands to wives vs. one-sided submission required of wives and/or women only.
#2: Abuse is an important and prevalent issue that is being exposed and talked about (which is a good thing). The issue of submission deeply affects those who’ve been abused. I can tell you from personal experience (both as an abuse victim and as an advocate for women who’ve been abused) the biblical interpretation of one-sided submission (wives submit to husbands, all women to submit to all men) increases abuse and gives women no voice or agency. They’re often told it’s their fault that they’re being abused and they just need to keep quiet and submit more. This “biblical” advice causes the abuse to continue and gives men carte blanche when it comes to submission and believing they have a God-given authority over their wives/women (of course not all men abuse women, it just gives men who are abusers a “biblical” reason to continue, if that makes sense).
I believe Timothy Hammons (whom you quoted above) has focused only on a couple of Bible passages and has forgotten what the rest of Scripture has to say concerning women.
*Acts 2:17 and Joel 2:28 speak of both men and women prophesying (speaking, teaching, preaching).
*Martha’s sister Mary chose to sit at Jesus’ feet learning (a place/position reserved for men only in a very patriarchal society) and Jesus’ praised her for it. It was also expected that those who sat at his feet to learn would go out and teach what they had learned (see Luke 10).
*Priscilla taught and corrected Apollos incorrect theology (Acts 18:18-28). Apollos was well-educated in the Scriptures, yet he and Paul were okay with Priscilla teaching and correcting him, a man.
In the first century church women held leadership positions, taught men & women, and spoke (prophesied). Which tells me God was (and still is) okay with women leading, teaching, and preaching. And to say as Timothy Hammons above that women are to not only keep silent and not speak, but to not even teach other women the Bible (except for submission and serving their husbands, caring for the home) is to not understand God and his heart, which saddens me deeply.
Lori, please know I write my words with the utmost of respect and am not responding in order to cause trouble. I simply wanted to share another viewpoint. I understand if you decide not to publish my post – this is your space and I respect that.
I do wish you a blessed day.
Grace and peace to you.
Tami
I seriously doubt they were at first, Phylla, but after time and their popularity (and the money they bring in), they are probably fine with it but I am not sure. They are most likely neglected as the women pursue their “ministry”.
It’s tragic how feminism has infiltrated the Church so deeply and caused watered-down Scripture to be taught. It has to be watered-down or the women would clearly know that they are not to lead. Maybe get involved in the watery doctrine church and teach truth to whomever will listen, if you’re husband is agreeable to it. These churches need to begin infiltrated with strong, biblically sound Christians.
Let me know how they respond to you. The head leader at our church said, “The subservience of women will not be taught at this church!” and that was it.
I was never taught godly submission, modesty, or being a keeper at home at any retreat or Bible study either. I didn’t enjoy retreats much either, however, at the last Bible study I attended, I was able to slip in biblical principles for women quite often! 🙂
I am so thankful that Ken supports and encourages me in my teaching women Titus 2 principles! I learn a lot and am challenged in doing so and we both know the weight of obedience upon our lives because of this; for a teacher is held to a higher standard and is accountable for their actions to the Lord. We don’t want to be labeled as hypocrites.
I have never heard of Eliz Rice Handford before. I will have to check her out. Out of the Garden by Fugate is excellent too.
Tami,
I publish comments that are respectful even if they disagree with me.
# 1 – Scripture is clear on wives relationship to their husbands. There are 12 verses that show this. Mutual submission doesn’t work, but I tell women who believe in it to be submissive then since they are accountable to the Lord whether or not their husband submits to them. Every institution needs a leader and marriage is no different. God created men to be the leaders.
#2 – Submission doesn’t cause abuse. This is a modern day fallacy. Evil men abuse or men that have a problem with anger. God has told us in 1 Peter 3:1-6 that wives being in subjection to their husbands with godly behavior win their husbands without a word. Why would a husband want to begin abusing a wife who begins being cheerful with him, learns to please him, loves serving him and meeting his needs? No, it does the opposite. It draws husbands to their wives.
Prophesying isn’t being in authority over anyone or teaching. These are all different gifts. Not one woman in the entire Bible taught men or was in authority over them in a Church setting.
There is nothing said about Martha going out and teaching others but even if she did, it would have been on a one-to-one basis or to several people sharing the Good News but not standing up in the front of a church gathering and preaching to men.
No, Priscilla didn’t correct Apollos. Priscilla and Aquila were the ones to do this and it does not say who spoke the most but I am sure it was Aquila. Still, Priscilla isn’t in authority over men and teaching men.
The Bible is the same yesterday, today, and forever and does not change with the culture. The same verses that I used in the body of the post are as relevant today as always!
Blessings!
You feel a wife should submit in such cases, then? I wasn’t sure what was more important–submission to a husband who WANTS you to teach, or not teaching men as per Scripture.
I suppose submission always trumps other commands. Is that what you mean?
Phylla
I cannot speak for any other church but in our small church almost none of the older women will step up and it forces those of us who still have kids at home, are homeschooling, and trying to put nutritious meals on the table nightly to be the ones who have to teach Sunday school, make meals for the home bound and just do many other acts of service that make an already tight schedule even tighter. I do not say this to really complain because I love the Lord and serving in any way I can, but I do think that it is sad. I personally feel uncomfortable teaching other women who are twice my age but I faithfully take my turn when the sign up sheet comes around as the older women pass it to the person next to them. (We do not have a designated ss teacher) Not really sure how to fix this or if there is even a “fix” except the Lord convicting them. I know all of these women very well and know that they have 2 or 3 times the “free time” that some of us have and yet… Sorry to gripe but at least in our church it is like all the aged women have “checked out”:(
I am saying it wouldn’t even be an issue if the women were dedicated to being keepers at home in submission to their husbands in the first place if they knew the Word, even the hard parts, and that women are not to teach nor be in authority over men. But once they try to intentionally misinterpret all of these verses concerning godly womanhood, then they must ignore them and do as they are “gifted” as they say, then husbands support them. There is no man that would say, “I want you to begin teaching men.” I just can never imagine this happening before a women disregarded the verses I mentioned. Your question is a red herring (something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting).
I was in the same position, Shelley, when I have four young children. Ken and I were almost always working in the nursery or teaching SS. The older women today are “retired” from helping younger women and anything having to do with them to the detriment of younger women and families. It’s very sad.
At our church, there is a woman in her 90s who sits in the nursery and rocks the babies. It’s so precious but she loves doing this! Oh, if only we had more older women (maybe not quite as old) who loved helping and teaching young women.
I’m sorry. That was not my intention at all. I desired to learn your views on the subject. I can certainly imagine a man who notices his wife’s persuasiveness and talent for speaking, who encourages her to “preach” to others (perhaps for the possible income)? I wondered what you’d feel was most important.
However, I think you are saying I should not ask this question, so I apologize.
Thank you, Phylla, and please forgive me for misunderstanding you but I seriously doubt any man would intentionally ask his wife to teach in front of men without a lot of persuasion on the wife’s part.
I don’t know. My own husband would have no problem with it. In fact, he says he’d be proud!
Elizabeth Rice Hanford is excellent!
Dear Lori ,
Thank you for that post. As with all your posts very biblical and very needful in this day and age.
I thank Tami for her comments . It just shows why older women should be teaching. Dear Tami, We have seen the devastation in our churches and society as a result of feminist teaching. When you have been married for 30 plus years and your children are walking with God and your husband rises up and blesses you, then it will be your opportunity to speak up, until then you don’t have the results to match your theories. Blessings and joy.
Hi Bev,
FYI…I am 51 years old, have been married for 31 years, and have a 10 year old son who has accepted Christ and has been baptized. God has called me to speak, write, and to teach. My husband has always supported me in all I do.
Wishing you a wonderful day. 🙂
God Bless.
God never calls us to do something that is contrary to His clearly stated Word, Tami. I’m afraid you’ve been deceived in believing what you do.
Hi Lori,
Thank you so much for your kindness. You didn’t have to publish my comment and yet you did, even though we disagree. Thank you also for taking the time to respond. <3 *heart*
I just would like to briefly respond to a couple of things you shared. As always, please know my only intent is to simply share another viewpoint and not to argue or cause strife – this is your space and I am a guest – I respect that. 🙂
*You said, "mutual submission doesn't work."
My husband and I have been married for 31 years and we've always mutually submitted to one another. We make all decisions together. When we've been faced with a major decision and we come to an impasse, we table it for the time being, pray some more about it seeking God's direction and then come back together to discuss. We've always managed to make every decision together. When both partners have each others' best interest at heart it's easy to make decisions. Scripturarlly speaking, we're all to have an heart attitude of submission toward one another (Eph. 5:21). Yes, wives submit to husbands, husbands also submit to wives (Eph. 5:21 and vs. 25). Husbands are called to sacrifice (Eph. 5:25) for their wives which is essentially the same thing as submission. Submission and sacrifice involve the same heart attitude – love – which is setting aside our wants for the good of another.
*You said, "Submission doesn’t cause abuse. This is a modern day fallacy. Evil men abuse or men that have a problem with anger. God has told us in 1 Peter 3:1-6 that wives being in subjection to their husbands with godly behavior win their husbands without a word. Why would a husband want to begin abusing a wife who begins being cheerful with him, learns to please him, loves serving him and meeting his needs? No, it does the opposite. It draws husbands to their wives."
Speaking as an abuse survivor myself (emotional, verbal, spiritual, sexual) and one who works with and advocates for abuse victims/survivors the church needs to educate itself and understand the dynamics between an abuser and the victim. The abuser is never satisfied, they will always find something wrong with their victim. So no amount of continuing to quietly and cheerfully submit (we abuse victims are already masters at submitting so telling us to just submit more doesn't help), making sure he's happy will change anything. It actually causes the abuse to continue. The man/husband gets exactly what he wants – total control over the woman (abuse is always about power and control). If the woman keeps silent and doesn't speak up, the cycle of abuse continues. She must speak up, both for herself and the abuser. The abuser must be confronted and held accountable if there is to be hope for any real change on his part. Telling the woman to keep trying to please the abuser only further wounds and damages her, carrying on the cycle of abuse, causing her to believe the lie that somehow it's her fault so it's up to her to "fix" the man so he'll stop abusing her. The only way to stop any abuse is to speak up.
I realize your post was not about abuse per se, but it does directly intertwine with the submission issue. We as the church body need to learn and educate ourselves on how to best help and support those in abusive situations so that what we do helps rather than wounds.
By the way, I enjoyed your video clip of the beach! 🙂 It brought back fond memories of growing up in the Pacific Northwest and going to the beach. I find the ocean so relaxing and peaceful.
Wishing you a wonderful day filled with many blessings. 🙂
Hi Lori,
I completely agree 100% with you that God never changes. I simply, with the utmost respect, disagree with you that I’ve been deceived. While God never changes, human being’s understanding and interpretation of Scripture differs and/or changes. You and I just disagree on the interpretation of Scripture. In the end, we’re each responsible and accountable to God for own walk with Him. I truly believe we’re all doing the best we can as we follow him. <3 *heart*
As always with respect and love,
Tami
It doesn’t make sense when people claim that the Bible tells us to submit one to another (husband to wives, wives to husbands) How would any decision ever be made!! Can you imagine that, the family would be so wishy washy. There would be no clear vision for a family.
Prophesying is not the same thing as speaking or preaching.
We should not go through the bible looking for “evidence” so that we can make (often incorrect) inferences/interpretations about what we think that God might be trying to say about the role of women. God gives CLEAR COMMANDS! We don’t have to guess 🙂
Thank you Lori for following these clear commands and teaching the rest of us!
Yes, I did ask for it at our old church. I PRAYED for it, I practically begged for it. Nothing. My question is, how can a family, especially with children, stay at a church that does NOT meet this very basic need for our Christian families?
Thanks
Mrs.O
No, Tami, God never tells a husband to submit to his wife. Marriage is a picture of Christ and His Church. Christ never submits and obeys His Church. The Church submits to and obeys Christ as wives submit to and obey their husbands. Just because it “works” for you doesn’t prove it’s right or biblically accurate.
If a husband is physically abusing his wife, she needs to call the authorities and get help. If it is emotional abuse, she needs to find help from a godly, older woman but submission does not cause abuse or God wouldn’t have commanded wives to submit to their husbands, just as children submitting to their parents doesn’t cause abuse, and citizens submitting to their government doesn’t cause abuse. I have a post for women who are being abused: http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2014/10/what-to-do-in-cases-of-abuse-or.html
I pray you begin reading the Word as it is and stop trying to manipulate it to say what you want it to say as many are doing today. It’s a very dangerous path to be on.
You’re welcome, Cori. God is very clear what He expects from us, yet many in the “church” are watering it down to fit into their “bible” which makes for a lukewarm church.
Not sure how you can misinterpret this: “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.” (1 Tim. 2:12)
Hi Dave,
**(Lori, just want you to know this will be my last response unless others want to engage further.)**
I wanted to briefly respond to a couple of things you shared.
*You said, “Scripture is inspired by God, through men, written to men, for men to administer in their ‘dominion’ over the earth. Certainly some scripture is specifically for the use of women but women do not administer it; men do and husbands in particular for wives, and wives’ Titus 2 instruction is still under the administration of men. If your husband should ask you not to discuss Titus 2 with women, then don’t do it.”
In Genesis 1:26-30 God gives ‘dominion’ to both men and women. He gave them both equal authority to rule together, not one over the other. It’s only after Adam and Eve sinned that the consequence of their sin was that husbands would now rule over wives. This was never God’s original intent for them. Christ’s death restored us to a right relationship with God and with one another (pre-fall relationship). However, because we still live in an imperfect world with imperfect people we still struggle.
Since Christ is our mediator and great High Priest between us and God (the veil separating us from God was torn away at Christ’s death) we no longer have a need for a human mediator (Heb. 4:14-16). We all can go directly to God as we each have our own individual relationship with him – He instructs, leads, and speaks to each one of us – not just only to men/husbands. So, while we’re created to need one another, women/wives don’t need to rely on men/husbands to “administer” Scripture – we can all go directly to God through Jesus for this – He is enough. To say that women/wives must look to men/husbands to “administer” Scripture is to say that Jesus is enough for men but not for women – that women are so lacking that they need Jesus + (plus). If I have misunderstood what you’re communicating here please let me know. 🙂 *smile*
*You said, “Women are not instructed to ‘go into all the world’; men are. Women don’t discuss or teach in the church or in the gates of the city; men do. Women don’t save anyone so if they are shut down by their husband, God still has a plan [“without a word” your obedience speaks!]. God has elected all His people before the creation of earth. So, men don’t save anyone either. The whole point of every last inkling of scripture is solely to fear the authority of scripture and to exhort and command us to obedience to it. That is it. All we have to do is obey.”
*And…” It is no coincidence that as the church was being slowly taken over by women in the 19th Century that the likes of Amy Carmichael were preparing to go off to the mission field, taking men’s roles into their own hands. No wonder we have women preachers today. While their message may be correct, the delivery is in sin. Certainly God works yet through sin, but let’s don’t tempt Him to wrath.”
*The Samaritan Woman, after her encounter with Jesus ran to tell about Jesus. Jesus never told her because she’s a woman she couldn’t “go and tell.”
*Jesus told the women to “go and tell” the disciples that he’s risen and alive even though at that time a woman’s testimony was not trusted. Jesus was showing that women can be trusted and believed.
I agree that neither men nor women “save” anyone – only God saves. And yet, incredibly, God chooses to work through each one of us to help others. God thinks just as highly of women as he does men. Scripture says He doesn’t favor anyone over another (that includes not favoring men over women by gifting only men to lead, teach, and speak). At penticost, the Holy Spirit poured out on both men and women. Today, God is the same – He gifts according to his grace alone, and not according to gender. There are no “male” gifts and “female” gifts. That means women are in fact called to teach, to speak, to preach and “go and tell” the good news to whomever God chooses.
Women are not “taking over” the church nor do we want to. Men need to realize that God never intended for them to “rule over” women. God has given equal authority to both men and women. An imbalance of authority, giving one person total authority and control is not an equal relationship. God created men and women equal in value/worth and authority and desires for us to work together as a team. We can never be truly united unless we see one another as God sees us, and value one another’s giftings. God never tells women to keep silent and stay on the sidelines. He calls all of us to “go and tell” and desires for each of us to be involved with him in his redemptive work.
If I have in any way misunderstood the things you’ve please, please let me know.
With respect,
Tami
Hi Lori,
I understand that verse (1 Tim. 2:12) to be a response from Paul to a specific church and specific situation at that time and not something that is meant for all women for all time. I see too many examples of Paul supporting women in leadership positions (leading, teaching, preaching, starting home churches) not to mention how God sees, treats, and works through women.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree – and that’s okay. I love you as a fellow sister in Christ and wish you well in all you do. <3 *heart*
Tami
Jesus told women to “go and tell’ but this didn’t give them the right to teach the Bible to men nor be in authority over them in any way. They were simply to tell what they had seen with their own eyes. The Bible for the Church (New Covenant) wasn’t even written yet.
Paul made it very clear that the gift of teaching and preaching in church are given to men since the elder and deacons (those who teach and are in authority in the church) are to be the HUSBAND of one wife and no, all these instructions to the Church are not for one church only as you said. That would be ridiculous if Paul spoke this for only one church: to have women be silent and not teach nor be in authority over men in one church. 🙁
Paul made it very clear that the gift of teaching and preaching in the churches are given to men since the elders and deacons (those who teach and are in authority in the church) are to be the HUSBAND of one wife and no, all these instructions to the Church are not for one church only as you said.
It would be ridiculous if Paul spoke this for only one church: to have women be silent and not teach nor be in authority over men in one church, Tami. Why? Did this church have super rebellious women that no other church has? You are manipulating Scripture, as many women today do, to fit your own likes and what you want to do instead of obeying the clear teachings of the Bible.
We are presently living in the Church age and the New Covenant was written specifically for us (Romans through Revelation) so yes, all of those verses are applicable to the entire Church until Christ returns to take us home.
Begin teaching it to any younger women who will listen. I’m not sure you can find a church near you who teaches this since it’s very uncommon and I’ve never been to one in my 58 years of life.
Exactly! So if a husband asks you to preach before men, does a wife had the right to override this command? Whst is right?
Hi Phylla,
I am not going to answer this “what if” question. It’s not my place to answer the “what ifs”; just what the clear Word of God teaches.
Blessings!
I asked because the Word of God was NOT clear to me here. Perhaps I can get an answer from a teacher who will share it with me. Thanks.
Yeah, Lori…
Those letters to the churches were for those specific churches, so to the Ephesian church Paul stated to the husbands to love their wives. I am not in the Ephesian church, so I don’t have to love my wife…
And Peter telling me to live with my wife with understanding? That was just to a group of people who live 2,000 years ago. It doesn’t apply to me…
With all due respect, I see your blog used to have dozens of comments and now there are very few. I took the time to ask a question about which passage in Scripture to obey, and you said you won’t answer it, and in fact, say it is a “red herring.” Do you think there could be a connection?
In truth, most discussions of Scripture involving seeking God’s will, which is what I was trying to do with my question. The answer is not always clear when two verses seem to conflict.
Lori, I am sorry to say I know many wife’s whose husbands wanted them preaching and teaching both women and men side by side with them. I know wife’s who really didn’t want to at first but their husbands talked them over. Their husbands wanted them standing shoulder to shoulder with them. I have even been in churches that taught this. I think it is very different here in Oz – perhaps! I don’t know?
Jilly oxo
Exactly! 🙂
I am sure the wives wanted to do this, Jilly. In all the years I have been mentoring women, not one has come to me by blog, email, or in person and said, “My husband is making me preach to men but I don’t want to. What should I do?”
Lori, I remember our Pastors (all men) when I was growing up taught that Paul made a point of saying *I* do not permit – in other words he made it very clear that it was him speaking and not the Spirit of God.
Apparently it is one of only two times in scripture where Paul made a point of saying it was him speaking and not God (the other is in 1 Cor. 7 where Paul is talking about marriage).
Maybe this is what confuses some people.
Jilly oxo
Like I said, I think it may be an Australian thing, I know these women they where shy women and women that did not initiate it! But I promise you it has happened, I would not lie to you Lori.
Jilly oxo
That seems very strange to me, Jilly. Can you share some of their names so I can research them?
Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (2 Timothy 3:16)
only one man in the world God wants a woman to submit to because he is a man. That would be the womans OWN husband. Older women are to teach this to younger women. It is actually massively empowering for a single woman to know this.
God bless
Tim
Two years later, but reading this post and discussion have me perplexed. I am in a church that teaches Biblical submission but allows a woman to use her gift teaching other women. Are we really so closed-minded to say that a women’s conference, because it did not take place in the New Testament, is not glorifying to God. If that is our rationale, then using the internet to share a blog is also not glorifying to Him because we don’t see women bloggers in the New Testament. Any way we can share His word, whether to a small group or to a large amount of people at once, is bringing glory to Him. And talking about women teaching for the money is absurd. I have spoken to large groups of women and have never made a cent. This is not my motivation and assuming that it must be is incredibly biased and judgmental.
My husband encourages me because he enjoys me encouraging women. I have never neglected him nor my children to do so.
Please do not assume that all people fall under your judgment.
Unfortunately, Kim, most women who teach other women fail to teach them what God has commanded that they teach them, namely biblical womanhood,and a lot of these famous female preacher/teachers of the Word teach false doctrine. There’s a good reason why God had the priests all men, the apostles all men, all the writers of the Bible all men (surely He could have picked one female if he wanted, right?), and all of the elders and deacons and elders all men. All of God’s commands are for our good.
https://michellelesley.com/popular-false-teachers/
I too feel uncomfortable going on these retreats. I don’t want to leave my husband actually. I enjoy being with him all the time. Especially now that we have an empty nest. We are the best of friends.
My problem is, all the Bible studies at my church are these Beth Moore type things. Every womens event at church is loaded with Beth Moore “fan girls”. I can’t even make a good friend at church because they are all into that stuff and I’m not.
It’s very sad, Lynn. Women’s Bible studies should be teaching biblical womanhood. Can you imagine how much stronger marriages would be if they did?!?!