The Cultural Train Wreck Coming to a Church Near You

The Cultural Train Wreck Coming to a Church Near You

Written By Ken

Dear Pastor,

Unfortunately, the church cannot be the salt of the earth if you keep sugar coating God’s Word. This has become so apparent to me over the past few months as we see and hear of more and more pastors and evangelical leaders falling into the slippery slide of culture and dragging their unlearned church along with them. Coming to a church near you is a teaching time that will make any mature believer’s spirit jump out of their skin and plunge them into despair for the modern-day American church. Things being taught by your pastor may be things your parents in their Bible believing church would have never been taught  but now it is a cultural train wreck where scripture becomes interpreted through the lens of relevancy to the world.

In an effort to be relevant and empower women, your pastor may be trying to walk a fine line in his mind and teaching between holding firm to what the Word of God teaches and making sure that his church has open arms for those evangelicals who hold other more “open” cultural views. The new third principle of hermeneutics (how to interpret the Bible) is now to take what the text actually says, examine the context and culture of the time, then read modern day culture back into the text to make it relevant. If culture is strong enough on any one issue, it is allowed to trump the first basics of hermeneutics by claiming that what the Word actually says was only for “that church,” the Corinthians, or Ephesians, but no longer applicable for today.

Your pastor may teach that in today’s modern Church, women are so much more educated than they were back in the days when Paul had to forbid them and shame them into not speaking in church.  The letter to the Corinthians is now taught to be a “one off” issue that was not a problem in any other ancient church, just the Corinthians. These women were special as they believed that because they were free in Christ, they were allowed to fully participate in church services and they were shouting out ignorant questions and being disruptive instead of learning in silence. So, of course, we can all see why the apostle Paul would write, “Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak” (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Pastor, I have a question and I am not an uneducated person, so can I ask it? Didn’t you just say how important context is, and how the Bible was written with no chapter headings, verse numbers, or even punctuation marks? Okay, so if that is true, why did you not read the phase right before “let your women keep silent” where it says, “As in all of the churches of the saints” (1 Corinthians 14:32)? Would not the context and text itself in this case shed some light on whether or not “women keep silent” was just for the Corinthians, just for the ancient Church, or for all churches of all times? What could “All the churches of the saints possibly mean”?

For that matter, why did you not explain the second half of the verse and the verses following the words “let your women keep silent… but to be in submission, as the Law also says.” Was this submission spoken of by the apostle unique to this church? Why is the apostle appealing to the Law when he makes this command?

Now go a few verses later and what does it say? Yes, another part of the text and context you left out of your sermon?

“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.” (1 Corinthians 14:36,37).

And why is God trying to make things so clear in the text? Oh, could it be as he told us in the context before the command, “For God is not the author of disorder but of peace, as in all of the churches of the saints, let the women be silent.”

Pastor, there cannot be a passage of scripture that is more clear in its text and context than this one, but by the time you get done with it, we are all confused. You tell us to look at the context, but you do not read the verses above and below the verse you want to talk about. What you really want to do is isolate the context to this one church of the Corinthians so you can try to prove an unprovable hypothesis that some loud and boisterous women carried their freedom of new life in Christ too far, creating disorder in the church gatherings.

I am just curious, Pastor, but how do you know that these women were uneducated chatter boxes? Does not the text itself, here, and in the 1st Timothy sister passage, both give some of God’s reasons why women are to be silent in the church?

“Let the woman learn in silence”
“…with all subjection”
“…as the law says”
“…for it is shameful for women to speak in church”
“shall not usurp authority over a man”
“for Adam was formed first, then Eve”
“Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived.”

Do you realize, Pastor, that the reasons given in 1 Timothy 2 predate culture, and form a much larger context then simply the church at Corinth and Ephesus? Is the apostle giving his opinions or the inspired Word of God? It’s not a hard question to answer because the one thing you have to love about the apostle Paul is that when he is giving his opinion he tells us, and when He is speaking a command from the Lord he tells us:

“As in all the churches of the saints, let the women be silent. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says” and “acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.”

I guess the bigger question, Pastor, is why are you going against what the church universal and what your own church has taught from the beginning? Your own church still may still hold to having no women preachers, although you allow every other type of speaking in the church by women from leading singing, prayer, announcements, to the little mini-sermonettes that often happens when a woman has the mike. I think most of us are okay with allowing women to speak in church with the 1 Timothy 2 understanding that it applies exclusively to: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man” (1 Timothy 2:12). But the verse is followed by “rather, she is to remain quiet.” So maybe we shouldn’t be so modern thinking as we are.

But should we not draw the line some place, Pastor? Did our purposeful, omniscient, and sovereign God allow His Church to get His Word all wrong for 2,000 years? But now that feminism has infiltrated all of society and the Church, is God now okay with us understanding these passages are no longer applicable and women can now teach men and exercise authority over them? Is the whole one godly concept of submission to be placed on the altar of feminism as we read modern day culture back into the scriptures to arrive at our modern-day convenient conclusions that match our culture? Even as Jesus Himself warned us strongly to be different, set apart from this world, and set apart for God to walk in His ways, not the ways of the world.

Pastors, when you teach that the these passages are only for the Corinthians and Ephesians, just two early churches and not “all of churches of the saints,” you undermine all of scriptural authority. You make up hypotheticals and make believe stories trying to explain away what the actual text and context say. Your whole basis of truth and ability to trust God’s Word are undercut, and your own authority called into question.

Why should we believe you, our elder teacher, if we too are new creatures in Christ and not in need of spiritual authority in our lives? Would it not be better to go back to the days of Corinth and we all come to the church gathering with a Psalm, Word of Knowledge or Prophecy? We, one by one, express what God has placed on our hearts, and if one speaks in tongues, someone must translate? Why listen to you when you do not believe the Word of God is authoritative, but rather God’s book of suggestions that must be read through each culture’s lens? Sure, you will try to draw the line at clear sins, but what happens when you are gone and the next pastor moves a little bit more down the road into accepting society’s sins, “so long as they are married” of course!

When we went to seminary, it was drilled into our brains that when we preached and taught the Word of God, we have an audience of One. God Himself is listening with high expectations that we would “rightly divide the Word of truth.” This means that no matter which way culture or our church drifted, we were never to drift along, but rather stand firm and clear on the things that were indisputable from God’s Word. But now this important theology of women is in dispute in almost all of our churches. Some are still holding the line on the traditional view, some have adopted the feminists’ view, and yet others are somewhere in between, teaching that good Christians can disagree on these non-essentials and still love each other and be a part of the same church.

I totally agree! I do not need to have the person next to me have all my same theology and understanding of the Word to love them, care for them, and share life in the body of Christ with them. But what I cannot see is how I can live with a teaching program that wants to be ecumenical by showing all the different points of view on this important matter, yet not stand firm on God’s Word and what it actually says and teaches. Love and acceptance are fine, but embellishing the records of ancient Christian women, leaving out the immediate context of the text, and ignoring the text itself and what it says by playing guesswork, none of these things are in keeping with doctrinal purity nor rightly dividing the Word of truth.

You think this is not coming to your church? We are regularly told to “be alert,” “be on guard,” and to “watch” for the thief is coming disguised as an angel of light. Who would not want to empower women in the Church!?! We know that women form the backbone of the Church in many ways, as without them the service of the church could not exist, but now they want more. This idea of living in submission is foreign to this culture as a cry for “equality” is what many believe the Church needs. And how does one gain equality? Women must be more up front, be able to preach and teach men, and exercise authority in the Church! After all, it is the only way they can feel empowered, and isn’t empowerment what God is all about? Didn’t God send His Son to rule and reign from Jerusalem, or did He send Him as a Suffering Servant who modeled for us both the roles of the Godhead and how one gives up their rights to equality to sacrificially serve the needs of others?

If our pastors are going to be relevant to try and create a “safe place” for our young women, they too often give up the solid principles of interpretation to adopt the feminist talking points. They listen to scholars like NT Wright and become enchanted with his guesswork and story telling on these important scriptures. Their goal is to show how open they are to dialogue and unity in the body of Christ, so let’s entertain the idea that the first sermon of the church was  spoken by women as they excitedly explained to the disciples what Jesus told them to say. To be relevant, these pastors may personally hold the line on a wife’s submission to her loving husband, but forget 1 Peter when it asks wives to be submissive to a husband who is “disobedient to the Word.” After all, what women wouldn’t willingly follow a loving husband? Well, how about my bride for 20 years as she waited for me to love her as Christ loves the Church? And she determined in her mind what love looks like, even as she never knew what love really looks like until she was transformed by the renewing of her mind as she began to align herself with God’s Word.

Our churches are breaking with broken families, marriages ending in divorce at alarming rates as Christian women walk away from their homes and too often children. Far too many Christian women have bought into the “christian feminist views” that they can only be happy by looking out for themselves and never fully trusting  a man. The life of Grandma and Mom is no longer a desire or goal, but has been replaced with the need for “empowerment.”

Do you realize that empowerment is the exact opposite of submission? That to be in power is to reject the clear teaching that wives are to “place themselves under” the leadership of their husbands as a sergeant places herself under her general, with Jesus as her Admiral and God her Commander in Chief. Yes, she willfully places herself under her husband’s authority as that submission cannot be demanded or forced by him, but he can request that she take up the issue with her Commander in Chief. For to God she owes her complete obedience with no ifs, ands, or buts about it. For she and her husband are under God’s command and one spouse’s role is not contingent upon the other. Each is to live out their lives in sacrificial service to the other, not trying to seek empowerment, but love, service and unity in a one flesh marriage.

“Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8). Coming to a church near you will be a sermon that in the pastor’s mind is doing the right thing in trying to elevate women, but what he has failed to recognize is that women have always been the main part of the engine of the Church throughout history. And they have done so the same way Jesus did, by displaying a servant’s attitude and serving the saints. Lydia and Phoebe were two remarkable women but there is no mention of them asking to be up in front of the Church or to lead men. Actually, apart from the Old Testament judge Deborah, we have no example of a woman in the Bible who leads men, and none who we know of who ever spoke a sermon or taught men in the Church. To do so would violate the commands of God given by the apostle for a reason… order in the family and order in the Church. Each one fulfilling the roll that God has given to us

Let’s get it right, pastors. This is all we ask, that our pastors speak the truth of the scriptures and limit the introduction of hypothetical speculations, feminist talking points, and ignoring the clear instruction God’s Word on this important issue. You cannot sacrifice clear and compelling verses of God’s Word on the idol of feminism; women who want to take on the role of men in and out of the Church.

For many of the unlearned and ungodly, the appetite to be like a man is insatiable. If you do not believe me, start counting the number of churches that have started to have no male preachers or elders. This is the end game, the goal, the desire of the harlot as she rides the beast, that just as Satan seeks to overthrow the rule and reign of God, so too does feminism want to usurp the authority of man, to eat the apple, and to throw off the bonds of the curse when God says, “…and he shall rule over you.” Yes, as Paul says, “it is in the Law.” The whole of the Law where no woman was allowed to be a Priest or King, or serve in the temple of God. The only question left is will the remnant stay true to the Word and be faithful to God by walking in it?

Yes, we must fully embrace our sisters as equals in Christ, yet insist that in our homes and churches we do things God’s ways designed with His order of things  to reap His blessings. The world has much to offer the carnal mind and flesh, but when you read the hundreds and thousands of those who follow this blog who live out what God teaches, they will tell you God’s ways are so much wiser and better, and lead to joy, fulfillment, and peace. Nothing is more empowering than walking the Spirit of God. But to know this, one must give the Word a try and in faith, trust God fully at His Word. May God keep us holy, set apart from the world, even as we live in it… For His glory and His calling and His purposes, unashamed of the gospel of Christ.

Dear Pastors,

“If the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who will prepare themselves for battle?” (1 Corinthians 14:8)

“Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that such shall incur a stricter judgement” (James 3:1).

“Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15).

“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant” (1 Corinthians 14:36,37).

54 thoughts on “The Cultural Train Wreck Coming to a Church Near You

  1. Amen! The churches these days are so lukewarm and falling into worldly thinking. The bible is clear women are to be silent in the church.

  2. Does the silence of women in church just refer to teaching/preaching, and during the service, or does it literally mean any time in the church?

    For instance, I will usually chat with my husband and the other women in the church after the service is over . Is this allowed?

  3. Wow and Amen !!! I will pray today that God will humble His church with a hunger and desire for the Truth and bring a revival to the people of God! Thank God for men like Ken who have zeal for God and preach the Truth!

  4. I think it’s past time that we all admit that there are very few actual churches (as defined in the New Testament) in the western world today. There are plenty of state-chartered (and in some countries, state-controlled) non-profit corporations that provide religious services, that serve as less-than-ethusiastic “Jesus fan clubs,” the “customer base” of which consists mostly of transients who stick around only as long as their emotions stoke them, their ears are sufficiently tickled, and they’re never asked to actually put themselves on the line and live the faith to which they give lip service.

    It’s reaching the point where the only TRUE church is the “underground” church (i.e., those without the trappings of real estate and paid hirelings as “pastors”). Stand by for this to become even more prevalent as the persecution continues to ramp up and the tares completely take over Churchianity, Inc.

  5. I have been saved since 1995. The vast majority of my “church time” has been in very conservative fundamentalist churches. Cultural train wreck is not coming but is already here in 99.9% of all churches, no matter what denomination it is, including even the fundamentalist churches.

    Something to keep in mind is most churches have become 501C3 religious organizations so that they are “tax free” to the government. By being a 501C3 organization, they are bound by the contract they signed to abide by all government laws and opinions. So since according to the government feminism is above men, the so called preachers must push the agenda or at least not preach against it or they will lose the church’s tax free status.

    Also watch how a preacher’s wife keeps him under control by just giving him a look that means he is not to continue in a subject.

    And what has been recently mentioned on here in an article the other day, demonic spirits have possessed a lot of women or are at least oppressing women to cause problems.

    Consider that a large majority of “christians” are not really saved but are just pretending. That includes preachers too. A lot of them are just “hirelings” preaching for the money and title.

  6. I understand the discouragement of the church. But remember Christ is the Head of the church and it is His church and it cannot fail. Elijah cried to God because he thought he was the only one left in the ‘church’. But God told him He had 7000 elsewhere. The church is world-wide and there are believers in even the weakest of congregations. Remember the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation. We are to encourage one another and God tells us to even be joyful in these dark times. God is victorious and He is in control and He is coming again!! Let us have greatfull hearts and rejoice to be called His children!

  7. I’m pleased that you have written this. I’m in the UK. Over here there is a long list, single women preaching, lesbian women pastors, every bad example you can think of. Here are some examples from many. An unmarried mother in a leadership role, is giving the impression that it is OK with God to have children before you get married. A lesbian pastor is giving the impression that God approves of same sex relationships. A husband and wife serving as joint pastors gives the impression that a woman does not need to be in submission to her husband. I can’t find the words to explain just how bad it gets when women disobey Gods word about being silent etc.

  8. In my denomination the credentialling process (what it takes to get ordained) is so long and arduous that most pastors are in hock to their wive for supporting them through seminary, internship, churchnplanting school, etc., etc.

    Thus they don’t want to speak against what brought them to the dance, so to speak (their wives working in the commercial.marketplace).

  9. Our church has 4 male pastors and all of our adult Sunday school teachers are men, except for an all-female class, which is usually led by one of our pastor’s wives. Her husband has been in ministry for decades and they’ve raised 4 children and are now grandparents, so I see her instruction to women following the Titus 2 teachings that we’re instructed to follow here on this blog. We have women singing on our Worship Team, but men lead the congregation and anything said or prayed between praise songs or hymns is by a man.

    Our Elder Team (including vocational and lay elders) is made up of all men.

    The only time women speak during the service is the occasional announcement for a ministry opportunity or upcoming event, which in no way is teaching or during any sort of instructional time. It takes place at the beginning, as part of an obvious “life in the church body” service segment in an appropriate style of disseminating information, nothing more.

    Thank you, Ken, for your warnings. If I sense that our local church is beginning to stray from these principles from 2 Timothy, we’ll need to reassess our membership, but at this point, I consider us blessed.

  10. The first century church still exists. It is called Orthodox. You can join the church that Jesus planted or don’t. What we are witnessing is the ripening of the fruit of the reformation. If it is sola scriptura, who decides what that means? I was a SBC pastor but now I’m Russian orthodox. The standard here is what was believed in all places at all times by all Christians. There is no mechanism for changing the doctrine. And a realization that the Church produced the scriptures and not the other way around says you look at the church for understanding the scriptures. My belief is that the evangelical and protestant and charismatic churches are going to be increasingly chaotic as the internet disseminates heresy at an increasing rate.

  11. There’s a good reason for these verses:

    “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called Toay; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end” (Heb. 3:12-14).

    We must continue to call out sin wherever we see it in the churches. Sin hardens hearts.

  12. “A similar problem arises when one considers the dictates of the Council of Jerusalem as recorded in the Book of Acts. Paul and Barnabas, having been confronted in Antioch with an argument between Jewish converts and Gentile converts about whether the Gentiles must observe certain Jewish laws (especially concerning circumcision), went to Jerusalem to discuss the matter with the other apostles. The council concluded with the following statement in a letter: “[I]t has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well” (Acts 15:28-29).

    Here we have what seems to be the apostles teaching, at a Church council, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that it is immoral, among other things, to consume blood or to eat the meat of an animal which has been strangled. Yet, how many Christians are cautious enough to be certain that their food does not contain blood or that the animal they are consuming was not killed by strangulation? Doesn’t their Bible teach that they should?

    They have unknowingly subscribed to the idea that the apostles imposed these requirements as disciplines which could later be changed.

    Other examples could be cited, but the point is clear: Scripture itself is not always sufficient to distinguish between authentic Christian doctrine and authoritatively imposed discipline. Quite simply, the Bible is not the single-source answer to all questions concerning the Christian faith.”

  13. Heather, those are very grievous sins in the church and we should be grieved over them and our grieving should lead us to cry out to our Father who hears our prayers. Church history does record many times of darkness in the church as well as reformation and revivals. We need to pray for the purity of the church as long as God gives us breath. But Jesus tells us the wheat (Christians) and the tares (wolves in sheep clothing) will both be in the church until the end. So we must learn scripture and obey scripture so we will know how we are to walk and we will know His path because He directs our steps. May God bless you!

  14. Yay! Unfortunately, this slippery slide is happening ever Sunday some place around the nation. Just look at the number of churches and once Christian universities that now litter our landscape. But there will always be a remnant, if we are watchful and alert. The problem is that too often we don’t get involved the first signs of the slide, and then it becomes too late.

  15. Great and needful post, Ken!

    I don’t attend a church, but am looking. I’m in the San Francisco Bay Area, and 95% of the churches don’t teach the Bible at all. It’s a showy and dysfunctional mess, with women leading, women and men refusing to confine sex to marriage, and refusing to have children in marriage, and biblical illiteracy at all time highs in America. Meanwhile, the average American is watching 78,000 hours of television, 70% of all online clicks are for porn, half of America is functionally illiterate, and well over 70 million Americans are on psychotropic drugs. We’ve gone from well over 90% of us being virgins in 1900, when we married, to well over 90% of us not being virgins today, when we marry. A shocking and disastrous change.

    The preachers in the churches of America are responsible for this dysfunction, and of everyone in America, IT IS THE PREACHERS WHO WILL BE PUNISHED THE MOST SEVERELY. They had the truth and were too cowardly and apathetic to tell it.

  16. Masterful Ken. Amen, Amen, Amen.

    I have been searching for a new church for almost 2 years and it is THIS very issue that has caused me to rule out the vast majority of the one’s that we have visited, sometimes (so disgusted at the shameful display) just walking out right in the middle of the service.

    I was visiting a church last year where a distinguished looking woman got up and spoke at the beginning of the service. I do not remember what she was saying but what struck me was that it was clear that she was in some sort of position of authority. After the service I went to the (very crowded) information booth and got the attention of the (only) man there and asked him who she was. He was all smiles while telling me all about how she had started out in the children’s ministry and had slowly risen in the ranks to her current administrative position (of such and such) over the whole (multi-campus) church. I point blank asked him, “Does she have authority over men in the church?” He paused, I could tell that the question made him uncomfortable but he smiled and tried to redirect the conversation. I let him finish and then asked him again, “But does she have authority over men in the church?” He again tried to redirect by answering another question (that I had not asked) and again I let him finish and then repeated the question a third time. At that point, he became visibly (red faced) angry and exclaimed “YES! YES she does have authority over men in the church!”. His answer was so loud that it caught the attention of some of those standing around us. It was clear that he understood my point. Really not knowing where to go from there, all I could come up with was “Well that is really unfortunate for what otherwise seems to be a nice church.” and I turned and walked away.

    More recently, I had a personal conversation with a pastor trying to challenge him on women speaking in their service. Although not nearly as competently as you laid it out above, I gave it my best shot. It was obvious he was uncomfortable talking about this subject but it boiled down to, after listing many other “justifications”, that he did not have the guts to tell his wife that she could not get up on stage and have a little mini-sermon at the beginning of the service. His final argument was that he “felt” that is wasn’t hurting anything and that it inspired the other women in the service (who were hooting and clapping at what she was up there saying). When I told him that God considered that “shameful”, I saw a flash of anger but he reined it in immediately. I just kept reading the scripture to him over and over and he finally exclaimed, “If we do what THAT says then they can’t say ANYTHING in the service at all, how can THAT be right!?! I just can’t do that!”.

    I tried to explain the context of a woman teaching (when men were present) and the authority it expressed when a woman got up on stage to speak (to the mixed congregation) but then he pounced on that and said, “See your drawing a line too and we just disagree where it should be drawn!”. His argument had become somewhat emotional and almost seemed irrational at that point but it seemed like enough so I told him that I had done what (I believed that) the Spirit had prompted me to do and thanked him for his time. I left feeling somewhat inadequate and defeated in that I had hoped for a more positive outcome, but scripture popped into my mind (checking my pride) “…neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.” (1 Cor. 3:7).

    To say that I have sunk into “despair for the modern-day American church” is about as accurate as it can get. It is truly disheartening. If I ever feel prompted again to have another one of these conversations, I will certainly use what you wrote above to (hopefully) make a more competent and persuasive argument.

  17. You are in error. Scripture itself IS always sufficient to distinguish between authentic Christian doctrine and authoritatively imposed discipline. Quite simply, the Bible IS the single-source answer to all questions concerning the Christian faith. Your hermeneutic is faulty.

  18. I completely and strongly disagree with you on this important point Emily.

    The Bible IS the definitive-source to answer to all questions concerning the Christian faith. The reason many Christians do not pay attention to consuming blood or eating meat that was strangled is because of the Bible which says:

    “As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him” (Romans 14:1-3).

    I will admit that this is one area that I do wonder about, but my conscience is clear before God on the matter. It is not a salvation or godliness issue.

    But you must be one that believes the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church is more authoritative than the Bible, and if so, you must deal with the past and present sins of these churches and incorrect interpretations of the clear Word of God.

    If we cannot trust the Word of God, we have very little ground on to which we stand with our faith. Sure we can disagree on some minor points, including women teaching in the church and still be a part of the family of God, but we must also realize that if we are to so fully violate context and the text, it has its repercussions as we interpret the next important doctrine of the Church.

  19. Montesquieu, many years ago I attended an Orthodox Presbyterian Church (, which was a conservative and Bible-believing denomination (Reformed). Although I don’t live close to one of their churches now to offer current input, you might consider visiting some of their churches in the San Francisco Bay Area, if you have not done so already. They are in San Francisco, South San Francisco, Berkeley, San Jose, and Sunnyvale.

  20. Food processing plants don’t kill animals by strangulation. They also drain the blood. If we look at the Old Testament sacrifices the blood was drained on an altar and then the pieces were put on the fire. They didn’t somehow pump a solution through all the veins of the dead animal to dissolve any trace amount of blood left. Our current processing of meat is in accordance with scripture. I’m sure there would be a lot more discussion on this if people killed their own meat regularly. I’ve only once had the opportunity to eat blood sausages as they aren’t sold in the typical American supermarket (and I declined).

    If you believe that our current meat processing practices are not in accordance with scripture you may want to look into the Seventh Day Adventists as they are all vegetarian.

    But looking for a command, example, or necessary inference as your hermeneutic is a tedious and insufficient lens in which to view scripture.

  21. Ken, may I submit that women not holding to their place within the church is not a minor issue but a major? I see it as mankind not holding their place under God and wanting to be “like” God which was what caused our fall to begin with. It is my understanding that any person who steps outside of their place is in direct rebellion to God. I often think of King David who had a knowledge of his position despite being king in contrast to his wife Michal. When he celebrated with the ark of the covenant he took off his robe and danced. He knew his place was below God but Michal thought he should have been on par with God and mocked him. For that she never had children which is a very serious repercussion.

    I definitely don’t want to pass judgement on women who speak in church as it isn’t my place or desire (as I myself fall short) but I do believe scripture is clear on this point and that whenever any of us steps outside of our proper place and/or authority that is the definition of sin.

  22. My husband and I have given up on finding a true Bible teaching church.
    And we live in the supposed “Bible Belt” of the United States.

  23. Amen, Amen, Ken.
    Now, what about the proverbial camel’s nose under the tent……women’s “bible” studies? Correct me if wrong, but I don’t find any precedent in scripture for women teaching doctrine….. in any venue. Instructions concerning the law in the O.T. were given to men (Leaders, Levites, etc), which was then given by those men to the people. In the N.T. likewise, there is never any direction for a woman to teach biblical doctrines in ANY manner or place of the church assembling. Once again, men were the ones entrusted with the teaching. From Genesis to Revelation, it’s men…….men. Ooooo……is this not the crux of what Satan uses to drive those of the feministic mindset wild??!!!! “Hath God not said……?”

    It is a very heavy(!) responsibility that God has given both men AND women…..not to be taken lightly, and with much soberness. (Titus 2:1,2 and 6-8). Men are to teach the “sound doctrine.” Older women are to “pass on” by example and encouragement (“admonishing”) those “good things” (not doctrine) listed in Titus 2:3-5…… to be learned and practiced, and seen/observed, in all women’s lives, no matter the age, which carry also a heavy weight of responsibility…. ..i.e….that God’s word may not be blasphemed!!! Thus each, man and woman, has been given their own “mandate” of God’s design, and any crossing over destroys His perfect plan in bringing glory to Himself.

    Any pastor reading this blog posting will hopefully be challenged, to consider the serious consequences of going beyond what God has set forth in His word concerning the men and women’s spiritual and practical lives exhibited in their congregation. The accountability of teaching “sound doctrine” will be great!!

  24. I know that I’m definitely a minority in my early Gen X group about women leadership roles in church. I think it’s about 50/50 with the boomers and the more conservative women are mostly gone now. To say it’s an emotional issue is an understatement. Women go crazy when I’m asked my opinions about women pastors/priests and I’m very clear on my view. “How can you believe….?” (fill in the rest). When women come to our church to do a retreat day or seminar, I’m regularly asked why I don’t attend. I explain that if it were about Women and/in the Bible, I would. But most are teaching/speaking to working outside the home women. Not me. Speak to me about Proverbs 31 and I’ll perk my ear to see if it’s for me.

    I lightly refer to feminists as the She-Woman Man Hater’s Club. That’s exactly what it looks like from my seat in the bleachers.

    A question for Lori or Ken. I’ve read Judges on Deborah becoming a judge, but I don’t think I completely understood HOW she attained that position. Could you help me understand? Thanks.

  25. Our church started (before we got there) as a home church. It now rents a few rooms in an old school. It’s very small, but good.
    I’d say pray earnestly, have hope, start your own fellowship, and start inviting people to your church!

  26. I think this touches upon the idea Roosh was talking about in one of his road trip videos…

    He went to an Evolution Museum and thought it was cool and thought they made some good points, but he also saw some strange things.

    He said ‘That would never be allowed in Catholicism or Orthodox Churches’

    You can’t just ‘Interpret’ stuff the way you want to..interpretations should be studied and debated for decades, if not longer before ‘Official Doctrine’ is decided

    I don’t agree with Lori and Ken that by having the attitude ‘what the bible says goes’….will stop ‘bad interpretations’

    I agree with all of Lori and Ken’s “interpretations”…but in a way they are all interpretations

    This is why you kinda need a central organization, a hierarchical structure to keep everyone and their ‘interpretations’ in line

    (admittedly like all hierarchical structures, they occasionally need some Cleaning done and have some people in high levels removed)

    Just sayin’

  27. “Something to keep in mind is most churches have become 501C3 religious organizations so that they are “tax free” to the government. By being a 501C3 organization, they are bound by the contract they signed to abide by all government laws and opinions. So since according to the government feminism is above men, the so called preachers must push the agenda or at least not preach against it or they will lose the church’s tax free status.”

    And sadly, yes a lot of women are possessed.

  28. You will never see an old line Primitive Baptist Church allow a woman into the pulpit to preach, teach, lead prayer or anything because it isn’t according to scripture. We do not believe in Sunday School (because it isn’t in the Bible and is a man made addition) so there won’t be a woman in that position (that doesn’t exist). The day that happens, that church will not be in fellowship with other primitive baptist churches and will not be seen as a PB church. There is still a “remnant” and for that, I am thankful.

  29. I think we are very much on the same Mrs. M. Unfortunately the Church has turned a blind eye to it all. Minor in comparison to salvation perhaps, but a major underpinning for much of our theology, marriages, family life and how we live out “Church.” Other than those things “minor.” :).

  30. I am not sure we would say that by believing ‘what the bible says goes’….will stop ‘bad interpretations’ but agree with you whole heartedly that without holding to the Bible as “truth” to be followed we have no starting or ending point to have a structured faith. God gave us Mankind’s Users Manual for a reason to keep us grounded on His truth and His ways.

  31. Hi Montesquieu !
    Yes, its a sad State for Christians seeking Bible teaching Churches in CA, but there are remnant churches still everywhere, we just have to find them. There will never be a “perfect” church, and we should not be looking for one. Only a church that desires to be true to God’s Word with expository teaching verses by verse.

    I feel for Pastors. Some are not trying and have fallen for culture and fame, but others are trying hard to hold the line. I am so glad I am not a modern day Pastor… so I can’t throw stones too hard :).

    Check out Reality Church… I have heard good things as Biblically solid and lots of young people.

  32. Thanks Trey,

    I think we have to be as gracious on this issue as we can while holding the line permanently at no women elders and no women teaching men. Then be gracious with those who disagree with us on the license they find to push this issue as far as they can go without overstepping these clear mandates.

    I guess on could include any type of authority over a man, but I am willing to worship with and accept those who allow authority so long as it is not spiritual authority. If can be a way of understanding the verse, although, if the family is a microcosm of the Church, then one cannot separate life authority from spiritual authority.

    Remember, going to Church has multiple reasons including the command, “Do not neglect…” to do so. We were never intended to live the Christian life without the life blood of others and we have to be gracious with these non-essential, yet vitally important issues.

    Jesus would ask us to hold to our string stand on this issue and talk to others about it, but in a loving and gracious way, as best we can. Especially if they are fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of how mistaken they are, or better, how misguided they are on these issues. Few are teaching them, so how do the elders even know any more? Let alone the average Christian in the pew.

    I hope you and your bride are doing great!

  33. Don’t give up! See my comments above about how important it is … and it is a command:

    “not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25).

    “Seek and you will find!” 🙂

  34. Thank you Redeemed!

    Yes, Lori and I wonder about women teaching doctrine to other women, but are far more concerned about these women refusing to teach what God has commanded them to teach. Almost none of them follow the command:

    “That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.” (Titus 2:3-5).

    How can that be that the vast concentration of women’s teaching seems to be on Old Testament stories that these teachers seem to morph into some terrific insight, and yet God’s greatest concern for women is that they would be sober, discreet, chaste, love their husband and obey them.

    Some place along the line women’s ministry lost its way. One can argue that because they are to help teach their children the Bible, they should be learning some of the other things of the Word too, but to your point, why not bring the pastor in to do that for the 15 minutes of Bible teaching time, while the rest of the time is focused on what God tells them to teach and learn and prayer.

  35. Stand strong Debby! We need faithful string women like you and Deborah in this crazy and at times upside-down Church.

    I wish we had more insight into Deborah than what the text gives us. We know that once again the Children of Israel had forsaken God for evil, but as always, God as a remnant. Deborah was one of the remnant and she seemed to have some great insight or special connection wit God that caused Israel to recognize her as a Judge.

    Perhaps she had done something miraculous or extra spiritual in the eyes of the Israelite. They could tell the God of Israel was with her. So they sought her out when they needed to go to battle for counsel. She was persuaded to go with Barak to go up with him to give courage to the warriors… and it worked. They won the battle.

    Other than that there is nothing much more to add except the song of praise they sing. But when things are upside-down in Israel, and the Church, Deborah’s like you will appear :). Strong and faithful to the Lord so much so that others recognize it, and want your advice and blessings.

    The fact that there are some exceptions to the rule never disproves the rule. It just proves there are a few exceptions as no one will put God or His Word in Box. :).

  36. I’ve recently been enlightened about what’s happening in most churches. And while I’m horrified, I’m not surprised. I’ve been encouraged in delving into the Bible and growing in my relationship with God. My husband and I went to a ‘christian’ bookstore last night and after observing what was in store, it seemed the place was filled with promoting heretical ‘preachers’ and many were on their bestsellers list. I felt sick to my stomach. I don’t think I’ll be shopping there anymore without much discernment. But by selling books and material by these heretics, they are participating in their heresy and exposing people to a false gospel. And all for a quick buck.weve also heard goings on with a church we left. That has seen 4 elders and the longstanding Sunday school organizes quit in a day. The LGBTQ agenda was being attempted to be enforced into the sunday school than none other than the pastor’s own daughter. There were cover ups and eventually the pastor defended his daughter and resigned. We then we’re told when the position of eldership was up for nominations, a woman was nominated. Thankfully, she didn’t get in. But that church is on shaky ground. Just horrible. But it leaves me more encouraged to search the scriptures daily and seek the truth.

  37. Oh boy! The article fails to mention that if 5% are LGBTQ and 5% at in polyamorous relationships, the vast majority are the same people. It is rare to find a gay couple that is monogamous, but they live in “open” relationships.

    But I have predicted that this is the next moral structure to fall… polyamory and polygamy will be the next set of sins our society will find acceptable. I fear that the pedophilia will also become something condoned by far too much of a fallen world.

    It’s so sad… and CT is not helping much…

  38. That is great! I wonder how many primitive Baptist Churches there are… will look it up. In the summer we attend a terrific small Baptist church that is very Biblically based, but I know some struggle with the women’s Bible study that does not want the Elders to direct them :{. What’s new…

  39. Wow… wow… WOW! I feel your pain Meg. Crazy stuff…

    Everything you say is too true and coming to a church near you, if not your church. I used to be hesitant about saying “come quickly Lord Jesus,” but the thought now seems far more appealing to me. We were told and warned that these days were coming, and but for one more revival, we are in a sorry state in far too many Churches. Thank God the remnant still exists, and we can talk and share by Internet :).

  40. It can be very disheartening to see those closest to you who taught you when you were a child the Biblical meaning of womanhood and the proper roles of headship (my parents) begin to be swayed by their own interpretation of Scripture which is in effect pride (thinking you know better than God’s Word). Seeing Christian marriages end in divorce after 20 + years together, and the devastation that’s left behind, made me cry out, “Why, Lord?” For me, it was a crushing emotional time but also a time of deep searching of what the Bible actually said, to develop my own convictions, to become an advocate of marriage and to learn to forgive. The Lord used that time in my life to convict me of my sin of not being a submissive wife, and it is the sin of pride to think that my way is the best way.

    An elderly lady friend in her 80’s said she is convinced that the only way to bring people back to Christ are crisis situations (war, etc). Well, we are seeing a crisis of faith, as Ken has so e
    eloquently written and many comments have indicated, and it’s a spiritual war.

    What’s my responsibility in these times as a Christian woman? I believe it’s to gird up my loins as Scripture says and know the Word. Soak it up like a sponge. Pray faithfully for the saints. Be prepared to minister to the disallusioned and hurting saints. Point them back to the teachings of the Bible. Be an example to younger women, (not perfect by any stretch, and the Lord is continually refining) to bring all glory back to God. In Christian love for the many who have been hurt by your churches’ leaders falling away. ❤?

  41. I completely agree with this! We had a temporary vicar move to the parish who was female. I don’t know about anyone else, but I winced when I heard her speak. My husband refused church during the tenure and read aloud at home. It was actually a great bonding experience. When the vicar returned, my husband consulted with him and we’ve been promised for it not to happen again.

  42. Unfortunately, there are things in the Orthodox Church that I find is not Biblical, especially the awful idea that we cannot have assurance of salvation.

    I have had many long discussions with a brother in Christ who has been doing great woks for God all of his life. His Father, Uncle, brothers all run an Orthodox monastery? He and one other I know in that faith seem stricken by how sinful they are and how they just hope and pray they can measure up to God’s standards, not seeming to understand anything about New Life in Christ principles and being in Christ. The old is gone and we are brand new in Chrism, and once we are in Christ there is no chance that we will not be saved. But yes, those who are in Christ all believe to the end.

  43. Yes, sad but too true about the conservative churches flowing along with society. I am not sure OI can agree about the demonic spirits or that “the large majority of christians are not really saved.” I guess if you are referring to all who claim the name of Chrism you may well be correct, but we do not have to have all our theology lined up perfectly to be saved. The thief o the cross had little or no theology, yet was saved.

    My hope is that God’s tent of His family is broad and wide and as God promises, there will be myriads upon myriads before the thrown of God some day… like the sand of the sea shore. But here on earth we are to know our fellow believers by the fruit i their lives… and sometimes its hard to see the few raisins that are hanging on to some.

  44. The Church will always be in the hearts an minds of true Believers. The church as we see it on earth as a structured entity, buildings and pastors/priests , especially before Martin Luther had some serious false and had come off the track, but tan goodness just look at all the true Believers who still remained to form the Reformation.

    We need a new Reformation in our churches today! A church that is relevant, but also stands 100% behind God’s Word. It can be done, and has been done throughout the church age. It’s just that once buildings go up, and organizational structures are filled, it always seems the church begins to drift with the culture because that is the easy path.

    We must remain on the path less trodden, the narrow path, the path that stands firming on each and every Word of God without apology. Saddly, this is much easier for us to do as individuals than a pastor to do in a church of many members.

  45. Just a little temporary violation of the clear Word of God 🙂 that your Vicar seems to acknowledge was a mistake. But glad your church is back on track!

  46. Yes, that can be part of it, but if these pastors were trained well they would understand that they are to be head of their family and wife, and as such, teach their wife the truth of submission and the need for this to carry over into the church body itself. If they are too afraid of their wives, they should not be pastors as they will be hit from all sides.

  47. “The compromises of yesterday become the starting position for bargaining today, and today’s new compromise will become the starting point for bargaining tomorrow.” – Dalrock

  48. I think the philosophy of preaching has also evolved with the modern era and has diluted to a large extent. The churches should introspect and teach the actual things that have been there in the Bible exactly how they are and not what they interpret them to be.

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